Redundee shafted

Discussion in 'Armed Forces Redundancy Scheme 2010' started by yellowbelly, Jul 3, 2012.

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  1. Not sure if there is any FPS rep lurking who can advise on this. I am helping a soldier who is a volunteer for T2. In broad terms he served from 03 to 08, then got out for 9 months, then re-enlisted until now. His original financial forcast when he was told he was being made redundant did not include his prior service. They have re-issued this now to include the previous service, but his CLS (compensation) remains unchanged, based on just 4 years Reckonable Service. There is an amendment in the latest version of JSP 764 which states prior service under AFPS 75 does not count towards the lump sum, only for pension purposes (his Preserved Pension figure has now increased). It also appears that the redundancy calculator has changed slightly in its wording of prior service. No idea when the change to the JSP came in, but all seems a bit suspicious. The answer from SPVA is for the soldier to appeal the redundancy decision. Any help appreciated.
  2. Yes, I am lurking around as usual. I have looked at the JSP and the relevant bit is in the exclusions below (I have underlined). Get the person to aggregate his service for pension purposes (so, officially joined together for pension purposes and achieved by writing to SPVA and asking them to do it). The extract is from the MOD website and says that, the previous service is not aggregated with current service, it is excluded - so, implicitly, if it is aggregated it does!?!

    I will flag this up with HQ to see if they were aware of people having problems like this.

    0305. Compensation Basis (Earnings and Service). The amount of SCP is determined by
    reference to a person’s pay and length of service.

    (a) Pay. For SCP calculation purposes, the person’s pay means basic pay – that is
    pay for the person’s rank and seniority, or if more favourable, the basic pay rate
    appropriate to any paid acting rank held on the last day of paid service before redundancy,
    and any other amount that the Defence Council may determine shall be treated as basic
    pay. It does not include any allowances or additional amounts12. A reference to, say,
    “three months’ pay” means the person’s annual rate of basic pay divided by 12 and
    multiplied by three.

    (b) Length of Service. The various calculation methods described later in this chapter
    refer to either ‘redundancy reckonable service’ or ‘uncompleted service’. In this context,
    these terms mean:

    (i) Redundancy Reckonable Service is all paid service in the Regular Armed
    Forces that the person gave while over age 18. It includes periods:

    In receipt of Statutory Maternity Pay;
    In receipt of Statutory Adoption Pay;
    On Ordinary Maternity Leave;
    On Ordinary Adoption Leave;
    On Ordinary Paternity Leave;
    On Paid Additional Paternity Leave;
    On secondment to the UN, NATO or other external employing
    organisation where the individual has opted to increase his reckonable
    service by the purchase of added years equal to the length of secondment

    It does not include unpaid Additional Maternity Leave, unpaid Additional
    Adoption Leave, unpaid Additional Paternity Leave or reckonable service for
    pension purposes that was transferred from another employer’s pension
    scheme or a private pension plan, or purchased by way of Added Years. It
    also excludes previous service which is preserved in AFPS 75 i.e. previous
    service which has not been aggregated with current service for pension
    and any period served on gratuity earning terms where the gratuity
    has been foregone or has not been repaid.

    (ii) “Uncompleted Service” is that part of the person’s current Regular
    service commitment that he was not able to complete because of the
  3. That's a very good example of why I'm happy to pay a subscription to FPS. Good practical answer, and I hope it helps the OPs colleague.
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Thanks for the update. The soldier has already aggregated his service, hence the revised forecast. When I spoke to the ARedC, I was specifically told to ensure I was reading Amdt 5 of the JSP, which it appears was updated in Apr 12. I believe the quote from FPS is maybe Amdt 4? Amdt 5 states "It also excludes previous service under AFPS 75 which the individual has opted to
    aggregate for pension purposes on rejoining the Armed Forces". If the quote above is from the MOD website, could you give the link as it may be that it has not been amended, and gives my man more ammunition. I can't see why this is such an issue; it can't be saving the Army so much money. The soldier is not happy to appeal the decision, as if he is successful, it just means he is still in the organisation which he believes has shafted him in the first place. I have recommended the FPS to him, and I think he will be joining. Grateful for any further info anyone can offer.
  5. I have studied the explanatory note for the change to the Redundancy Order and the original Statutory Instrument and I cannot see any exclusion which would affect the person you describe. The latest amendment stops people getting paid twice for things (eg. medical pension plus redundancy, DER plus redundancy), it stops payments under both the scheme for AFPS 75 members and AFPS 05 members and it stops you counting again service from which you were previously made redundant. All that is fine in my book BUT I see nothing which excludes aggregated AFPS 75 service. I am in FPS HQ tomorrow and will discuss with colleagues. Will get back to you.

    PS. If you want to look for yourself the original order is SI 2006/55 and the amendment is SI 2011/208.
  6. A mate and I are both in this situation. Him having left for 7 years to rejoin and myself for six months, both having done roughly the same amount of service time and we're both getting the same compensation sum of around 12K. We have Written to aggregate and have had an updated forcast sent through where the lump sum has remained the same, only the pension has been ammended. I am a non applicant and mukka had applied so that obviously has no effect. I phoned spva today to find out the reasons etc and they said to write another letter (struth), so now waiting for them to get back to me on that one.

    It seems like theres some smallprint somewhere for them to screw guys over who have split service which is pretty disgusting. The amount of people who make there decisions on what the calculator blurts out just to be giving the finger because they rejoined is higher than you would think and I'm sure the mod knows what they're doing. Thing is, on JPA, if it only has a reckonable time of say 3 years somany days, surely one wouldn't be eligable for redundancy in the first place?
  7. FPS has taken this up with MOD as we cannot see where the power to do this is. As soon as we get a reply, I will post it.

    In the meantime, I suggest that you ask them where, in secondary legislation (NOT THE JSP), the law provides for the exclusion of AFPS 75 aggregated service.
    • Like Like x 1
  8. I am in exactly the same boat, I have a difference of £12000.Surely they wouldn't be allowed to aggregate and use our service to make us eligible and ultimately redundant, yet then decide that we don't get paid for our previous service?,as it stands, by aggregating 5 and 1/2 years extra, I gain £1500 when I am 65.Thanks your majesty, I will almost certainly be dead by 55 let alone 65.I really hope FPS finds out how we can resolve this although knowing the Army it will be a closed case and a big fat f**k off :(
  9. Well it seems like its now a wait out period for most of us. I no it's wrong of me but I am sort of glad that there are quite a few of us in this boat as hopefully something will get pushed forward or revealed. The biggest annoyance is that somebody high up has a reason for this whole mess but hasn't shared that information with anyone else. Yes the DIN etc states that aggregation applies to your pension however it doesn't say anything about the lump sum. Honestly if it did, I wouldn't have so much of an issue with the whole thing. I just want to know the reasons for this muck up/shafting or whatever you want to call it. Got the message obout appealing then going through service complaints but to me that seems like a last resort. Im not lazy or anything but I honestly think that they should sort this out rather than a low level soldier having to chase after things. Thanks guys for at least having some info on this as you have kind of been the only help lol.
  10. They allow you to aggregate and for that service to count to EDP. Then they explain your pensions entitlement in terms of:

    - having passed the EDp 18/40 point;
    - expecting to pass the EDP 18/40 point but service being cut short (two permutations); and
    - having an engagement which would never have taken you to the EDP 18/40 point.

    I can't see how they can allow the service to count for EDP but not for SCP. I can't find any legal power to exclude it and, as soon as MOD show us where the power is, I will post on this thread.
  11. I have just spoken to a friend of mine who WAS in the same boat as us guy's,He was offered £15000 before he aggragated his service,Once aggragated he has now been offered £60,000 which was correct as to the MoD calculator.The only reason I can see that this has happened and why it is different to ours is because he never went onto pension 05 and Joined on 75 and stayed on 75 when he re joined.So basically, we are being shafted because we (without a choice in my circumstances) were automatically transferred over to pension 05 when we re joined,Nice one.
  12. Sorry to butt in, but if you're not ******* happy about it, why not call FPS or AFCS or SPVA instead of whinging about it on an anonymous website?
  13. hmm

    DSPSA 4.5.23 dated 13 Jan 12 para 15 sub para d

    covers this process

    More information contained in DSPSI 11/11.

    None of this information is hidden on the Defence Intranet, just people who have been spoon fed their entire careers who rely on these sites

    the reference also covers FTOD
    • Like Like x 1
  14. B_AND_T

    B_AND_T LE Book Reviewer

    Hate to be pedantic but....

    It's not anonymous, it's called "The ARmy Rumour SErvice"

    Just saying like..
  15. Thank you.

    You can't please all of the people all of the time.

    You ******* spotter xxx