"Recruit or die"

watto135

Old-Salt
msr said:
misterp said:
our unit has a policy of attending 3 out of 5 battalion run weekends a year if you don't attend you don't your bounty. it means you get good numbers on some weekends but not all.

That's illegal...

msr
my unit does it as well MSR
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
DFTR,

I have had the benefit of working for both types! My point is that in eSel's example, it sounds like the trust is not there, hence they are not attending. The best people to break that cycle are the Toms. Once they have experienced the reality meeting up with the advertising, it should become self fulfilling.

I am now in the position of planning and providing the training for our subunit, and have had to enjoy all of the benefits of doing the work for a good exercise and then have 6 toms to turn up.

We are definately turning the corner, and word of mouth within the soldiers network is definately the way forward.

Duke
 
watto135 said:
msr said:
misterp said:
our unit has a policy of attending 3 out of 5 battalion run weekends a year if you don't attend you don't your bounty. it means you get good numbers on some weekends but not all.

That's illegal...

msr
my unit does it as well MSR
It's still fuc8ing illegal!! :frustrated:
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
Dont_Fear_The_Reaper said:
watto135 said:
msr said:
misterp said:
our unit has a policy of attending 3 out of 5 battalion run weekends a year if you don't attend you don't your bounty. it means you get good numbers on some weekends but not all.

That's illegal...

msr
my unit does it as well MSR
It's still fuc8ing illegal!! :frustrated:
It is only illegal if they actually withold the bounty. Using the threat to try and generate attendance at key weekends is not illegal (possibly immoral) but if the funds are not withheld, then no harm no foul.
 
The_Duke said:
DFTR,

I have had the benefit of working for both types! My point is that in eSel's example, it sounds like the trust is not there, hence they are not attending. The best people to break that cycle are the Toms. Once they have experienced the reality meeting up with the advertising, it should become self fulfilling.

I am now in the position of planning and providing the training for our subunit, and have had to enjoy all of the benefits of doing the work for a good exercise and then have 6 toms to turn up.

We are definately turning the corner, and word of mouth within the soldiers network is definately the way forward.

Duke
Dukester, I take my hat off to people like you.............for I also am one!

Seriously, joking apart, I too organise and have done so for many a year, training for my/our soldiers. I have also experienced the ba8tard task of doing my civvi job whilst juggling a coy ex for no bugger to turn up!

Whilst I completely understand your sentiment about the word of 'The Tom' being the way forward, believe me, put a coc% somewhere in the CoC and it will go to rat shi8.

Respect :headbang:
 

Cardinal

War Hero
I am in a specialist unit but for attached ranks there are vacancies who do not have specialist civillian skills.

You would never believe it though, I have made suggestion after suggestion all disregarded out of hand, "No we cant recruit from the cadets" "cant do a presentation at colleges where students are coming to the end of their VM's (and other applicable) courses" cant cant cant, so sick of hearing it I tend not to bother now.

For those people I know who have been interested, in the attached ranks posts RLC storeman etc, I have given them my units details but without exception they have been f***ed off, the recruiting staff have shown no interest whatsoever. With only one exception they have now been totally put off the TA.

Since we need recruits especially those who have a few miles left in them as an organisation my Bn does not seem to try very hard or take recruiting very seriously.

Cardinal
 
The_Duke said:
Dont_Fear_The_Reaper said:
watto135 said:
msr said:
misterp said:
our unit has a policy of attending 3 out of 5 battalion run weekends a year if you don't attend you don't your bounty. it means you get good numbers on some weekends but not all.

That's illegal...

msr
my unit does it as well MSR
It's still fuc8ing illegal!! :frustrated:
It is only illegal if they actually withold the bounty. Using the threat to try and generate attendance at key weekends is not illegal (possibly immoral) but if the funds are not withheld, then no harm no foul.
Sir Duke, had I have seen this post beforer replying to your previous, my taken off hat would have remained securely attached!!!

In days of old, were things called 'O' days, lovingly known as Obligatory days. A soldier had to complete a pre-requisite no of them to qualify for bounty. They were outlawed!!!

Any commander who seeks to re-introduce them is leaving themselves wide open and, personally, I hope they get fuc8ed from a great height.

Immoral or not, these tin-pot Napoleons are set to command us, not fuc8 us about and the guidelines for them are set, it's not a case of "come and apply your own rules to the TA, just in case TA regs din't suffice". You c8nt!! (rant over, deep breathing now ongoing, sorry Dukey)

:threaten:
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
I knew that would start a riot! I abide by TA regs, but I do not get myself tied up in knots over things like this.

We also have these weekends. A soldier must force himself to do 4 out 0f 9 selected weekends. Jump into Arnhem for the annual remembrance service, go on a Bn airborne exercise, show off doing security at the London marathon, remembrance weekend etc etc etc. Anyone who does not attend these sorts of weekends is also highly unlikely to have done enough training to meet their bounty requirements anyway.

They could not uphold the threats, and both the CoC and the barrack room lawyers know it. It is an idle threat, but with good intentions.....

just like all of those SNCOs that claim to take officers behind the vehicle sheds to "sort them out". Lots of talk, rarely ever happens. :thumright:
 
The_Duke said:
I knew that would start a riot! I abide by TA regs, but I do not get myself tied up in knots over things like this.

We also have these weekends. A soldier must force himself to do 4 out 0f 9 selected weekends. Jump into Arnhem for the annual remembrance service, go on a Bn airborne exercise, show off doing security at the London marathon, remembrance weekend etc etc etc. Anyone who does not attend these sorts of weekends is also highly unlikely to have done enough training to meet their bounty requirements anyway.

They could not uphold the threats, and both the CoC and the barrack room lawyers know it. It is an idle threat, but with good intentions.....

just like all of those SNCOs that claim to take officers behind the vehicle sheds to "sort them out". Lots of talk, rarely ever happens. :thumright:
Duke, you work for Ford motor company, signed up to their requirements and do your job. Boss rolls in Monday morning, says he doesn't agree with what the Ford Motor Co board agreed and now wants to move the goalposts! Ford Motor Co on the other hand, haven't changed your terms of service, nor instructed your boss to move the goalposts!

Question: Who'se in the sh1t? Goodnight
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
The union rep (read BRL) will complain, the boss (CO) will be called in to explain his case to Ford (Bde or higher). Boss will explain that he was trying to use the change to motivate, but accepts that this was misguided. If he has actually withheld money, then quite rightly all hell breaks loose. If it is just the threat then he will get the bolacking, worker (soldier) is no better or worse off, neither is Ford (Army). Only person who may suffer is the person that tried to implement the change (career ending OJAR).

That person is the CO. Blokes - no change. Me - no change.

As I said, no harm, no foul other than possibly to the CO's career.

Edited to expand original
 

msr

LE
The_Duke said:
As I said, no harm, no foul other than possibly to the CO's career.
If only....

msr
 

Blyth_spirit

War Hero
The ideal cycle is:

1. CO/TM/OC negotiate/plan interesting varied FoE with a good balance of weekends spread over the year.

2. Trg Offrs & SPSIs turn these plans into reality, adding value and maximising the use of training time.

3. Details of these plans are communicated to troops through newsletters, posters and briefings to maximise attendance.

4. PSAOs, QMs depts etc support all aspects of training through efficient admin and logistics.

5. Satisfied soldiers, back in the bar at the end of the weekend text their mates who chose to stay in 'coz it looked like shite' and tell them they missed the best TA weekend of the decade.

6. Next day at work the same satisfied soldiers regale potential recruits (their mates) with tales of their weekend exploits ensuring starry eyed wonderment and immediate interest in joining.

7. Following drill night the non attending soldiers turn up because of the texts and potential recruits turn up because of the tales. All as a result of the well run training.

As I say its an ideal, but not an unachievable one. But it shows the central part that good training should have to both retention and recruiting.
 

Wingletang

War Hero
B_S - nice but at the end of the day, it's about two over riding principles:

Leadership and Command

Which of course assumes a fertile Officers Cadre, and there we go again about YO's.......
 

Blyth_spirit

War Hero
Last thing I want is a fertile Officer Cadre!

I know we're not allowed to voice a preference for them to all be chaps anymore but I'd much prefer if they weren't fertile! Least they could do is go on the pill.

A man with my reputation after all...



...oh that's not what you meant. Sorry, I'll get my coat.
 
Blyth_spirit said:
msr said:
Because until the OC has an input into his PSAO's OJAR, nothing will change.
They do now, don't know if its across the board but it certainly happens.
Input? Well, writing the damn thing certainly seemed like input to me. As I did for all NRPS staff and, at one time for Reg PSI's as well (thereafter reverting to 'input' to Trg Maj).

I am slightly surprised that there are units where this doesn't happen.
 

Wingletang

War Hero
The_Duke said:
Wingletang said:
eSeL said:
Had a similar discussion on Armynet today with the TM, with much the same outcome. The onus is on us JR's to get our mates attending.
bollox
You must be having a bad hair day today WT!

I am with eSel on this one. If the OC/SPSI/PSAO phones Pte Buggins and tells him that the training will be great, and he must come in, he is likely to treat them with a healthy dose of scepticism.

If his mate phones him up, tells him he just missed a cracking weekend, and is he coming in for the next one because it is OBUA and the more blokes the better then a much better response could be expected.

The onus is on the CofC to provide interesting and worthwhile training, but the best people to get the soldiers in is other satisfied soldiers.

Duke
I was, actuallement - but after a blow thingy, I feel a lot better.

That said, I still don't agree.

I concur that a satisfied soldier (I'm sure I've written this somewhere else....) will recruit others - it was ever thus. My point is not that this isn't a worthwhile recruiting route nor one that often brings in quality long term committed individuals - it does, I know it does, cos I've been part of it - my point is that when the TM says that this is the key route in for new recruits, then I start losing hair.

As is ever with these things, we all keep looking at the positive. There is a flip side to this apparently 'golden' solution - I know a number of people who have joined at the suggestion of their 'mates', got some way through training before realising that

a) it wasn't for them
b) their 'mates' might not be such great mates after all
c) that they can't leave due to peer pressure
d) that they miss their previous life

who, in the end, leave far later than they should have done and either discard their mates or take them with them.

Business and pleasure don't mix. Better to make mates at the TA and keep the others separate. Maybe because 34% of people joined the TA as 'mates' is a direct cause of our high turnover rate?
 

Mr_Relaxed

War Hero
I've seen that aspect as well. I'll be surprised if half the posters can't think of half a dozen soldiers in their unit who left and their mates left at around the same time, even if they're mates that they met during their recruiting phase.

The loss of a good OC can be enough to tip people over the edge, especially if the incoming OC isn't seen to be in the same mould.

The thing that struck me the other day was a post (I forget by who) that said the TA had 10 DIVISIONS at one point in the 50's.

Accepted that some of this was from National Servicemen who were perhaps notional attendees, but what happened to 10 Divisions worth of men? What changed?
 

Cardinal

War Hero
Mr_Relaxed said:
The thing that struck me the other day was a post (I forget by who) that said the TA had 10 DIVISIONS at one point in the 50's.

Accepted that some of this was from National Servicemen who were perhaps notional attendees, but what happened to 10 Divisions worth of men? What changed?
The public perception of the TA, perhaps even the way the army views the TA.

I was talking recently to two uncles of the 1950's generation, one a Regular Infantryman the other a National Serviceman from the Royal Signals who went on to do his reserve service with the TA. They were both very positive and viewed it as just another part of the Army, the part time bit.

This was in sharp contrast to the public image of more recent generations. Over the last week several TV dramas have featured TA soldiers, in one the TA soldier was a thick moron, half stalker, half village idiot. In another the TA soldier was a walter mitty type murderer with a fetish for knives and carving women and small children up and in the last the TA soldier was also portrayed as a walter mitty type character, who murders to hide the fact he is gay.

Not very flattering and also highly inaccurate. However these are prominent images of the TA, the reach peope at home in their living rooms. Even years ago when the TV show Soldier Sldier was being made, with army support, the one episode where the TA was featured had the full STABS/ARABS treatment fully justified when the TA soldier stole a rifle.

Yes they are all fiction, but they present a negative image of the TA. What positive images are there? a few dodgey TV adverts?

Evidence of the TA being so undervalued by the army that it's constantly being chopped, changed and cut (Drill Halls/TAC's where the unit name changes with remarkable regularity, or closed alltogether). Comments about Casual Labour and a general apathy toward the armed forces in general and the reserves in particular by the Govt.

Thats what has changed, the army is to blame (as are the other services for their respective reserves). Its done nothing to raise public awareness of the TA and show it in a positive light, Media ops has never approached a TV company and suggested they make a series like "Paras" (remember that from the early 80's?) or more recently "The Queens Cavalry", amongst others.

Imagine the impact on recruiting of a long TV documentary series, which follows a reservist, or group of reservists from their initial selection and training right through to operations in Iraq or Afghanistan. A programe which not only raises public awareness of the TA but shows it to be a professional, integral part of the army.

Of course it won't happen, it would require effort and there are far too many lazy, brain dead, inept and complacent managers in todays army. Instead the TA and other reserve forces slip into obscurity and the only image left in the public awareness is the negative ones brought to their homes in the odd drama or comedy series.

Cardinal
 

msr

LE
Cardinal,

I think the problem we are facing right now is being driven by the fact that we are involved in two unpopular wars, neither with a clear mission nor seen to be of any business of, let alone benefit to UK PLC.

'The Paras' launched to a background of comprehensive military victory in the South Atlantic. The Argies surrendered and we had a signature on a piece of paper.

What is victory in Iraq or Afghanistan going to look like? We will not be returning on a wave of pride, but in dribs and drab as the politicians tell the pulic that we have 'finished the job'.

And no-one believes them anymore: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/michael_portillo/article1364671.ece

msr
 

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