Recognition of prior experience and courses!!??

Discussion in 'ACF' started by pobarg, Sep 23, 2006.

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  1. Right then it has to be asked...... but how do you feel out there when your hard earned mil quals(if you have got them, if you haven't read on I think this might be an interesting thread) are treated contemptuously and dismissed out of hand, I have stuck with the organisation off and on and I am coming to terms with the amount of hoop jumping one has to do, but haven't we heard of APEL ( accreditation of prior experience and learning) I understand the issues pertaining to the training of men not "young adults" however these qualifications if given appropriate recognition could offer a bench mark of useable skills and experience and also help with the manning crisis i/c AI's by utilising individuals with useable skills......and not going through the protracted ACF egg sucking courses (albeit initially).

    I've just read that to myself and the question although long seems to make sense........Well??
     
  2. It would seem a bit strange if you had to requalify on courses that you have already done. Am I right in saying that your SAA instructor qual or range management qual doesn't run out? Out of interest would an ex class one combat engineer have to wait until they have done their KGVI course before being allowed to set up trip flares etc despite it being part of their trade? What about Unit Water Safety Officer courses, would they still count? Not that I am getting out any time soon but it would seem strange not to be able to carry over useful qualifications provided you could prove that you passed the course!
     
  3. i think that there would be little or no official recognition of any of your courses as the ACF seem to be very poor at recognising and utilising trade quals and when you by-pass their established empires with your( any ex reg with teaching courses) diverse and appropriate qualifications it seems that you upset the apple cart some what. I understand that refreshers may be needed in some cases and ACF top ups with regards to kiddie legislation would be necessary, but there has to be some common sense mid way solution available without the WALTY wannabes de-motivating and dare I say it insulting put down of " Oh thats not recognised here..." and having to re do the whole process from scratch......oh deep joy!
     
  4. What about quals from one cadet org to another? I am an ATC instructor, and am contemplating moving over to ACF, as I feel that my skills are underused and un-appreciated. I have a small stack of usable quals, one of which is directly equivalent to KGVI.

    Not having to be told to 'suck eggs' could be the factor that swings it for me.
     
  5. I don't know about inter cadet organisation quals but a pound to a pinch of sh1t they are non transferrable and again the demotivation factor goes up and the recruitment and retention goes down. It seems to me and it's only a personal observation that there is a small amount of protecting empires going on!
    Am I sounding negative?
     
  6. We have an ATC Officer who transferred over to us around 18 months ago. He is still trying to get his commission recognised let alone his course. Good luck with that........
     
  7. It gets on my tits big time when regs or ex regs go on about ACF instructors being hasbeens and wannabes. dont you think there might be a good reason why they didnt join th forces ie medical or mabay it just wasnt for them. I wanted to join the army but failed the medical so i joined the ACF instead, that dosnt make me a hasbeen nor a wannabe im not in it for the money or the rank if i can make a difference in a kids life then thats very satisfying. when a kid walks through the door at 13 with no disapline or respect and leaves at 18 with the rank of CSM and a respectfull young man then the ACF has done its job. Yes there are some adults including ex regs who are power crazy and like bossing cadets about but please dont tar us all with the same brush. the ACF is not perfect, no organisation is, including the army but most of us feel we are making a difference. some qullifications gained in the services can be carried over to the ACF. but dont forget, its kids your working with and a lot of your qullifications dont apply and any courses you need to do arnt exactly rocket sience. go to or phone your local CTC and they will tell you all you need to know, but dont forget its the KIDS your there for they are your first priority not the money or the rank
     
  8. Having served with a CTT I can answer some of your questions.

    Range quals are for life if you keep up-to-date. So mine would be out of date and questionable because I have not run a range in 8 years. The same would be for adv trg, no log time the qual would be ify.

    Each county can an d does what it likes. I have had ex inf NCOs on initial training courses and it seemed as pointless to me as it did them. Although the county found the course reports from a third party a good indicator.

    But in most cases it is up to your county.
     
  9. Flyingrockdj

    Flyingrockdj War Hero Moderator

    Jimbojims post is the usual drivel from the "your qualifications aren't relevant " faction I see. Well laddie let me tell you that someone with 20 years of running ranges and SAA training along with about the same time experience of dealing with at times very vulnerable young adults, with a huge expereince base as a training provider whether at an ATR/DEPOT or phase 2 trng, with total course lengths probably adding up to your age is of course no where near as clued up or professional as one of you doing a few weekenders following your basic instant knowledge course and we all bow to your superior knowledge....of course its all kids isn't it...........and none of us are parents then...............

    Tell you what. the day I see an activity run by one of your sub species ran as well as an ex reg/ta/raaf/rnr/rmr/stjohns then I will change my opinion.................and I am not holding my breath.

    In fact JIMBOJIM invite me along to your next activity and see if you can convince me?

    With attitudes like yours it's no wonder you can't recuit ex forces and the cadets are mostly ill disciplied chavs!

    Except the ones that aren't of course
     
  10. you obviously dont have anything to do with the ACF , you sound like one of the, whatever youve done ive done more and a hundred times better brigade, and im not as young as you think, i joined the ACF at 20, that was 26 years ago, and as for the kids being chavs, with an attitude like that its no wonder people of your generation think kids are all the same. Go to a 2 week annual camp then tell me that they are all chavs, tell me that AIs dont act in a profesonal manner, and as for parents, most when invited, wont even come to the det to see their how kids are doing. some parents send their kids on annual then piss off abroad on holiday. anyone is entitled to join the ACF including ex regs. but dont knock it till you try it.
     
  11. Flyingrockdj

    Flyingrockdj War Hero Moderator

    You are a ranter aren't you!
    I can assure you Jimbibobobo matey bloke that I am an ex cadet, ex regular, ex ta and now deeply involved with the cadet movement and some of the most well motivated and dedicated individuals I have met have been AI's with no previous experience, they learn from the experts whether the CTT's ar static training teams and from their peers, if however you were one of their peers I would be very worried!
    I must remind you that for parents to nip off abroad whilst their children are on a youth activity is in fact illegal, by making it plain to parents what will happen if they do this and are ofund out it usually works.
    You do seem hell bent on giving the cadet forces a bad name. I note that you joined at 20? were you never a cadet?

    And I am older than you........and a lot more crusty!
     
  12. Yes i was a cadet for 5 years and enjoyed every minute of it and still do, but i dont know where you get the idea im giving the cadet force a bad name, its a brilliant organisation. i suspect your not in the ACF but the ATC but i wont stoop to your level cadets are cadets NOT chavs whatever organisation they belong to, as for AIs, i have nothing but respect for them.
    you maybe older than me, and a lot more crusty, maybe just a tad stale.
     
  13. Flyingrockdj

    Flyingrockdj War Hero Moderator

    No you seem to confuse me totally. I in fact work and have worked extensively with both organisations whilst serving and now whilst ex services. There is usually a direct correlation with the attitudes of staff members and the cadets themselves, this also used to be the way in Regimental depots/ATR's where you could see the individual idiosyncrasies of instructors mirrored by recruits.
    As I have said some of the members of the adult staffs of both organisations seem to be involved in it for the wrong reasons whether living vacariously through youngsters of just plain walting whereas some well to be frank have been outstanding individuals.
    I have in my time had my range Quals questioned after stepping in to prevent cadets loading weapons with the butt party still on the way down range, A pyrotechnics demo..you know the old one about the thunderflash under the helmet to demonstrate it's power.................
    The basic thing to remember is that if someone has extensive experience teaching/running activities for regular or reserve forces the chances are that they will be easily be able to modify there SOP's for the actual participants in the activity. after all this is what is taught on service SAA course after all, the importance of reading the books beforehand.
    Since being involved with CF I have often been the one to remind both serive helpers and adult staff that the cadets are in fact children and there are natural limitations that this implies.
    Having recently "redone" all my cadet quals in rangework/shooting which was basically me teaching the whole thing as of course to the training team my experience was obvious. a waste of my time in my view. and recently attended a BELA course, again pretty poor course in my eyes but then I am a former MEL winter and summer I can say that none of these courses gave me one piece of additional information that I could not have read up on.
    If APEL is not to be applied officailly to these courses quals when in fact we all know it is being applied unofficially. it is a barrier to the right sort of staff being recruited, which is the main reason I have chosen not to be in uniform with these organisations just to be temporarily back in my old one when required with permission of my CVHQ. This way strangley, all my Mils quals are extant.

    Stoopid isn't it
     
  14. Flyingrockdj

    Have read this thread and have some information for you, please read the following,

    pam 21 para 0316 retention of range qualifications - Your range quals can be carried across

    JSP 535(the red book 2004 version, not got new 2006 to hand but still applies) - para 0204 - If you are still current Jsmel still counts, in fact if you have jsmel then you can take cadets into wild country where as BELA only allows you to take your cadets in Normal Country,

    I have been an adult instructor for 6 years now after 5 years as being a Cadet, i have heard all sorts of strange and wonderful rules re this over the years, unfortunately it all comes down to the local county. if they went by the guidlines as above then it would be great, but i can see your point about being made to go out and complete inferior quals
     
  15. Flyingrockdj

    Flyingrockdj War Hero Moderator

    It all come down in the end to which book is followed which is very frustrating to all.
    Range and weapons quals are laid out in Pam 21- the bible and the reference doc for everything, it also lays out transfer of range weapons quals rules to CF-Then each CF books contradict the bible!
    The only source of reference about ranges is pam 21.
    Jsmel- bag of worms this BELA stuff as CF are using it as their main exped qual now and taking people out into the bondook for DofE gold for example but insisting that people with "proper" but uncurrent quals are really in charge- dangerous.
    Before doing the BELA course(yawn) another staff member(ex Shiney fablon sick chit never walked further than to the NAAFI in all his sheet changing and 1x ex civ member of staff same detail but worse 22 stone with congenital heart condition) got "awarded" the BELA under APEL!
    Now when these people (who by the way are hardly ever availiable) actually turn up for theses activities they spend the whole time telling the vastly(not me that vastly but other are) how thing sreally should be done! fast forward a few weeks next exped = no staff apart from admin vortex and potential casevac= excercise cancelled and dissapionted cadets.

    An elemtn of common sense should be applied

    Anyones past quals can be checked as long as they are ex reg or ta so just check........................
    You could also see if they have ever worked with youngsters before, they hold copies of all ACR's