'Real' Officers' Attitudes Toward the LEOC Course

What is the 'real' officer's opinion of the LEOC?

  • Good and about time.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm with Jeremy on this one.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I couldn't give a flying one.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#1
I have recently attended the LEOC Course (not saying which as there have only been 3) and found it very useful if a little slow in places. Problem is, in the Mess recently some chinless twat of a 'real' officer decided to debrief me on what a sack of shit it was and why it was a waste of time. Unfortuntely, 'Jeremy' was about 26 years old and in the f**king REME. His valued opinion was:

It will take more than 4 weeks on a shitty little course like that to make you a REAL officer old boy....'

Needles to say, 'Jeremy' was soon being escorted down a corridor for his very own debrief from yours truly!

The question is, though, 'Jeremy' aside what is the 'real' officer's opinion of the LEOC?

1. Good and about time.
2. I'm with Jeremy on this one.
3. I couldn't give a flying one.

(You'll be pleased to know that after his debrief, 'Jeremy' very quickly re-thought his position and is now a particularly ferevent advocate for all things LE)
 
#2
Just thought I'd help you out there - clearly the syllabus needs to spend more time on 'Use of ARRSE's many functions'!
 
#3
I could've probably managed to put a poll up if I was so inclined, but thanks anyway..............

By the way, arrse did get a mention on the course by one of the guest speakers; he was a little wary of the site to say the least.
 
#4
By the way, arrse did get a mention on the course by one of the guest speakers; he was a little wary of the site to say the least.
Always nice to get a bit of free publicity!!
 
#5
Santa_Sunday said:
By the way, arrse did get a mention on the course by one of the guest speakers; he was a little wary of the site to say the least.

And deservidely(sp) so ,

"from tiny acorns do mighty oaks grow"
 
#6
I have heard nothing but plaudits for this course.

The course is not about turning you into an officier because those on course have already demonstrated that they have the right attributes for a commission otherwise they would not be there. If the course did not exist then it would take those being commissioned longer to find out the answers to their many questions.

S_S - many congratulations by the way.
 
#7
I think the LEOC is a great is a great step forward, as usual about 30 - 40 years late but we have to start somewhere!

What does the LE Officer bring to the table. Experience and a thorough understanding of his profession from the bottum up.
What he/she normally lacks are academic qualifications backed up by a formal structured military education to prepare him/her for command or staff.

Nowadays I think we generally expect far more from the LE Officer than in the past. We certainly expect them to write. However, the Officers system is traditionally geared up to prepare the DE Officer for Staff and the LE Officer to fulfill the traditional LE RD appointments of UWO, MTO, QM (T), QM (Gen), OC HQ and possibly 2IC Regt. The opportunities in the Staff world recently opened up to LE are only because of the shortage of DEs.

The LE Officer is never going to compete on the same level as the DE Officer without a complete restructuring of the Army. The LE to DE entry conversion is really for a tiny percentage (from the technical Corps) that will be able to compete with a better than even chance on the DE Pink List.

If we want full value from LE officers we should identify those SNCOs who wish to have a full career as a soldier before possible commissioning. Educate them properly with distance learning packages and formal courses.
They will then be better prepared to fill the gaps in the traditional DE appointments as and when required.

Quote for a former CO and SO2 Officers MCM Div
"Never forget that an LE Officer is only seen as pollyfiller, quality pollyfiller and I certainly couldn't run my Regiment without them, but pollyfiller none the less!"
That should get a few responces!
 
#8
Arrd_

Well said - I agree LEs are essential and we will see more of them throughout the Army which can only be a good thing in my view.

R
 
#9
The author obviously needs a vote of confidence as to whether or not atendance on this course is going to enhance his status amoungst his fellow officers. It is clear that the LE community are only there to make up the numbers and it is time the LE community had a reality check. We are talking about a population who can only be promoted up to Lt Col and who ultimately will be placed into the dead end jobs that nobody else wants. Lets get real who wants to be a shagging TQM or 2IC HQ Sqn the potential for those LE's to serve on the staff is limited and rightly so, so why bother attending your LEOC course surely you should have the commonsense from being WO1's to survive without this nonsense course which has been dressed up to comply with "Investors in People" your basically as that good old football song goes No fukcing use to anyone, your no fukcing use at all" forget this course grab your cash and get out of our mess !!!
 

CGS

War Hero
Moderator
#11
CLOONEY,

It is unclear from your rather odd and particularly blinkered comments whether you are either a very junior officer, or hold a commission at all. If you had attended the Common Commissioning Course (or any of its predecessors) you would understand that the value of training, such as that offered by the RMA, is universal to any potential leader/ Commander/ officer, regardless of length of service.

There are a number of arms who appoint LE officers in posts such as Sub-unit Command (not OC HQ Sqn/Coy), not as a 'gap filler' to make up the numbers due to DE defficiencies, but as a matter of policy. Indeed, LEs in many arms are now able (dependent upon certain criteria, age etc) to transfer onto the DE roster and compete for mainstream jobs. With the dropping of ACSC and therefore the 'black bag' system as we know it, the piste is going to get a whole lot more open.

I understand your potential unhappiness with this state of affairs, but may I suggest that we all, as an officer corps', embrace the system and work towards its success, instead of deriding it and putting it down?
 
#12
Clooney, you're a wind up aren't you? I mean seriously. If so, then back to the NAAFI old fella. If not, then PM me and we'll really see who needs a ' vote of confidence'.

By the way, if the grammar, spelling, punctuation and syntax in your message is any indication, then you are most certainly still in the NAFFI. If not, then maybe a place on the LEOC Course may help you to reach Lt rank. Maybe even Capt.

Toddle Pip, old boy!
 
#13
The suggestion therefore is that following an initial grade 2 appointment it will be realistic to see LE's selected for what are now "Black Bag" appts (which will no doubt be subsequent appts) ? who is kidding who, take a look at the numbers selected on Beige 03 and how many LE's have been selected for staff trg - was it 12 !! I sense for these 12 the future is bright for the rest as one would say the future is "orange" with continued employment for the majority at RD.
 
#14
Santa_Sunday said:
Clooney, you're a wind up aren't you? I mean seriously. If so, then back to the NAAFI old fella. If not, then PM me and we'll really see who needs a ' vote of confidence'.

By the way, if the grammar, spelling, punctuation and syntax in your message is any indication, then you are most certainly still in the NAFFI. If not, then maybe a place on the LEOC Course may help you to reach Lt rank. Maybe even Capt.

Toddle Pip, old boy!
Santa Sunday was that the NAAFI or the NAFFI !!!, somewhat confused maybe the rest of the Army should be informed of the change. :evil: Maybe you are indeed in need of some formal trg !! maybe we could also lose SITREP, LOCSTAT etc etc any suggestions.
 

CGS

War Hero
Moderator
#15
Clooney,

You have hit the nail on the head. The whole point is that there is a process of convergence ahead. The other services are already ahead of us in that they have no barrier to commissioning an OR at almost any stage and that the potential for staff training and subsequently command (or appointment to difficulty 1 / 2 MS posts) is actually quite real. This is borne out by looking at the current ACSC intake, where the RN and the RAF have a much more diverse cross-section of student body.

If your argument is based upon the belief that the LE fraternity is actually not up to the job, then maybe a quick study of wartime brevet ranks would be in order? If you are otherwise suggesting that the LE fratenity is intellectually inferior to you or I, then surely you would applaud the chance for them to receive additional education (such as a spell at the RMA?)

If you are sucking lemons (as I suspect...) then what is the route cause of your problem? Are you worried that giving LEs parity will create greater and unwelcome competition for you? Has a QM managed to get inside your OODA loop and upset you?
 
#16
CLOONEY said:
It is clear that the LE community are only there to make up the numbers and it is time the LE community had a reality check. We are talking about a population who can only be promoted up to Lt Col and who ultimately will be placed into the dead end jobs that nobody else wants. Lets get real who wants to be a shagging TQM or 2IC HQ Sqn the potential for those LE's to serve on the staff is limited and rightly so, so why bother attending your LEOC course surely you should have the commonsense from being WO1's to survive without this nonsense course which has been dressed up to comply with "Investors in People" your basically as that good old football song goes No fukcing use to anyone, your no fukcing use at all" forget this course grab your cash and get out of our mess !!!
Touchy touchy!! Take it your not too keen on the old LEs then Clooney.
You do make a bit of sense and I genuinly do not believe there would be half the opportunities for LEs were it not for the numbers game, however you have caught yourself out in the final sentence of your arguement while you were venting your spleen on the poor old LEs. If they are no f*****g use and should grab their cash and go, as you suggest, I take it you will now volunteer to take on their valuable contribution in the RD world of UWO, MTO, QM, OC HQ, SHEF Advisor etc.!

Getting back to CGS reply of how the other services are streets ahead on commissioning from the ranks at any stage with no bars. I don't think you find the Senior Service are very keen to commission ORs however the Boys in Blue do commission from the Ranks to become "Branch Officers". They also appoint DE Officers to be Supply Officers (QM) Transport Officers (MTO) and Property Managers (QM Gen). T

So dear Clooney, the future might be brighter than you think and all Officers will get the opportunity to be QMs. Rather you than me old chap! have you seen how many f*****g hats the poor sods have to wear!!!
 
#17
Clooney, you really are a class act!!

Navy
Army
Air
Force
Institute = NAAFI

or is it NAFFI?? 2Lt Clooney will have the answer!! Then again, I suspect that you have only ever known it as Spar, eh Clooney? Get some time in subby!

You are a prick of the highest order. A job licking the arse of DCOS at Div surely awaits. 'Real' officers must be so pleased to have a beaut like you arguing their corner.

Another pink gin old boy??
 
#18
Far be it for me to criticise Santa, but you're in danger of losing your argument by leaving such posts as your last one.

In fairness to Clooney however, in my experience, I seen some atrocious LEs. I've met some incredibly stupid DE Officers and only God knows why they were commissioned in the first place, but I've met some awful LEs. I base this on having watched how they set about 'planning' their careers. I found it embarrassing to watch Warrant Officers change their dress style, accent, social circle and interests all in the name of 'their career' and some of their wives are incredible. And this is all before they are even considered for commissioning and it does not resign itself to the odd one or two either. I have cringed at the antics of many WOs seeking commissioning. Otherwise relatively intelligent men turn into the biggest arrse kissing sanctimonious 'Yes' men, I have ever seen. Worse still, is when they are actually commisioned. God do they pontificate. The 'wise men'......yeah, sure.

The whole vicious circle starts again when they begin to 'nurture' WO's of similar character. They all appear frightened of WOs who have something about them though. I've often wondered why that is? Sadly, it is those with something about them, who tend to take the money and run, as suggested by Clooney. Quite a few have had their hopes and intentions deleted by LE Officers.

I also found that the standards which they apply are based upon their own. They never forget that they were WOs, they judge every WO against their own personal standards and lets face it, some LEs have morals and standards so low, that they could walk under a snakes belly wearing a top hat. Some of them are so out of touch with reality and lost in a world of their own percieved success. What will they do when the bubble bursts? I can only imagine that DE Officers find some of them a constant source of amusement.

I've met some good ones, but they tend to be more the exception than the rule in my line of work.

I wish that they would make up their minds however, as to which camp they are in....are they Officers.....or are they WO's?

I know nothing of your course Santa, but would hazard a guess that it could only be a good thing. All LE Officers should have some form of 'proper' Officer training and I don't mean the 3 day joke of the AGC nor the insulting practice of teaching 'etiquite' to the working class, most of whom have presided over or sat at more formal dinners/functions than any other bugger.

I hope that you are a good LE Santa. The Army needs good LE's. You've got a point Clooney. But you lost it in the delivery. (Not saying that my drivel is anything to show off about).

Now I'm off back to where I belong.........in the NAAFI!
 
#19
Wise words indeed, Dirty- S. I've had the misfortune to see some disasterous LEs, displaying all the above characteristics - plus absolutely blinkered, inflexible thought and a lack of desire to help unless it will further their own interests...I've met some absolute stars, but they were rare birds. The best ones are those possessed of the moral courage to be a pain in the ass for the right reasons...
Re the course - I know the bloke who wrote the course, and without exaggeration he's one of the Army's very best officers - v impressive list of achievements and an unbelieveably nive bloke to boot. As a first off course it'll need time to bed in - but training for any new appointment or career change can only be a good thing.
 
#20
CLOONEY said:
The author obviously needs a vote of confidence as to whether or not atendance on this course is going to enhance his status amoungst his fellow officers.
Commissioned in my twentysecond year of service, the likes of Clooney may well debate, if I am actually an officer.

There can be no debate though that he can only ever deserve to be called an officer.

Having worked for and managed orrifeces for the best part of 22 years, I don't think that even the IiP assessors are going to fall for the value of a 4 day course.

Thankfully only real Ruperts pay any heed to what their MCM Div has to say, others take a healthy pinch or reality when considering their [Orwellian] " balanced carrear profile".

40% of my Corps officers come from the ranks, LE might be pollyfilla in some cap badges, in ours it's the bricks and mortar :wink:
 
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