'Real' Officers' Attitudes Toward the LEOC Course

Discussion in 'Officers' started by Santa_Sunday, Dec 23, 2003.

  1. Good and about time.

  2. I'm with Jeremy on this one.

  3. I couldn't give a flying one.


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  1. I have recently attended the LEOC Course (not saying which as there have only been 3) and found it very useful if a little slow in places. Problem is, in the Mess recently some chinless twat of a 'real' officer decided to debrief me on what a sack of shit it was and why it was a waste of time. Unfortuntely, 'Jeremy' was about 26 years old and in the f**king REME. His valued opinion was:

    It will take more than 4 weeks on a shitty little course like that to make you a REAL officer old boy....'

    Needles to say, 'Jeremy' was soon being escorted down a corridor for his very own debrief from yours truly!

    The question is, though, 'Jeremy' aside what is the 'real' officer's opinion of the LEOC?

    1. Good and about time.
    2. I'm with Jeremy on this one.
    3. I couldn't give a flying one.

    (You'll be pleased to know that after his debrief, 'Jeremy' very quickly re-thought his position and is now a particularly ferevent advocate for all things LE)
  2. Bad CO

    Bad CO LE Admin Reviews Editor Gallery Guru

    Just thought I'd help you out there - clearly the syllabus needs to spend more time on 'Use of ARRSE's many functions'!
  3. I could've probably managed to put a poll up if I was so inclined, but thanks anyway..............

    By the way, arrse did get a mention on the course by one of the guest speakers; he was a little wary of the site to say the least.
  4. Bad CO

    Bad CO LE Admin Reviews Editor Gallery Guru

    Always nice to get a bit of free publicity!!

  5. And deservidely(sp) so ,

    "from tiny acorns do mighty oaks grow"
  6. I have heard nothing but plaudits for this course.

    The course is not about turning you into an officier because those on course have already demonstrated that they have the right attributes for a commission otherwise they would not be there. If the course did not exist then it would take those being commissioned longer to find out the answers to their many questions.

    S_S - many congratulations by the way.
  7. I think the LEOC is a great is a great step forward, as usual about 30 - 40 years late but we have to start somewhere!

    What does the LE Officer bring to the table. Experience and a thorough understanding of his profession from the bottum up.
    What he/she normally lacks are academic qualifications backed up by a formal structured military education to prepare him/her for command or staff.

    Nowadays I think we generally expect far more from the LE Officer than in the past. We certainly expect them to write. However, the Officers system is traditionally geared up to prepare the DE Officer for Staff and the LE Officer to fulfill the traditional LE RD appointments of UWO, MTO, QM (T), QM (Gen), OC HQ and possibly 2IC Regt. The opportunities in the Staff world recently opened up to LE are only because of the shortage of DEs.

    The LE Officer is never going to compete on the same level as the DE Officer without a complete restructuring of the Army. The LE to DE entry conversion is really for a tiny percentage (from the technical Corps) that will be able to compete with a better than even chance on the DE Pink List.

    If we want full value from LE officers we should identify those SNCOs who wish to have a full career as a soldier before possible commissioning. Educate them properly with distance learning packages and formal courses.
    They will then be better prepared to fill the gaps in the traditional DE appointments as and when required.

    Quote for a former CO and SO2 Officers MCM Div
    That should get a few responces!
  8. Arrd_

    Well said - I agree LEs are essential and we will see more of them throughout the Army which can only be a good thing in my view.

  9. The author obviously needs a vote of confidence as to whether or not atendance on this course is going to enhance his status amoungst his fellow officers. It is clear that the LE community are only there to make up the numbers and it is time the LE community had a reality check. We are talking about a population who can only be promoted up to Lt Col and who ultimately will be placed into the dead end jobs that nobody else wants. Lets get real who wants to be a shagging TQM or 2IC HQ Sqn the potential for those LE's to serve on the staff is limited and rightly so, so why bother attending your LEOC course surely you should have the commonsense from being WO1's to survive without this nonsense course which has been dressed up to comply with "Investors in People" your basically as that good old football song goes No fukcing use to anyone, your no fukcing use at all" forget this course grab your cash and get out of our mess !!!
  10. Did someone say proper officer and REME in the same sentence?
  11. CGS

    CGS War Hero Moderator


    It is unclear from your rather odd and particularly blinkered comments whether you are either a very junior officer, or hold a commission at all. If you had attended the Common Commissioning Course (or any of its predecessors) you would understand that the value of training, such as that offered by the RMA, is universal to any potential leader/ Commander/ officer, regardless of length of service.

    There are a number of arms who appoint LE officers in posts such as Sub-unit Command (not OC HQ Sqn/Coy), not as a 'gap filler' to make up the numbers due to DE defficiencies, but as a matter of policy. Indeed, LEs in many arms are now able (dependent upon certain criteria, age etc) to transfer onto the DE roster and compete for mainstream jobs. With the dropping of ACSC and therefore the 'black bag' system as we know it, the piste is going to get a whole lot more open.

    I understand your potential unhappiness with this state of affairs, but may I suggest that we all, as an officer corps', embrace the system and work towards its success, instead of deriding it and putting it down?
  12. Clooney, you're a wind up aren't you? I mean seriously. If so, then back to the NAAFI old fella. If not, then PM me and we'll really see who needs a ' vote of confidence'.

    By the way, if the grammar, spelling, punctuation and syntax in your message is any indication, then you are most certainly still in the NAFFI. If not, then maybe a place on the LEOC Course may help you to reach Lt rank. Maybe even Capt.

    Toddle Pip, old boy!
  13. The suggestion therefore is that following an initial grade 2 appointment it will be realistic to see LE's selected for what are now "Black Bag" appts (which will no doubt be subsequent appts) ? who is kidding who, take a look at the numbers selected on Beige 03 and how many LE's have been selected for staff trg - was it 12 !! I sense for these 12 the future is bright for the rest as one would say the future is "orange" with continued employment for the majority at RD.
  14. Santa Sunday was that the NAAFI or the NAFFI !!!, somewhat confused maybe the rest of the Army should be informed of the change. :evil: Maybe you are indeed in need of some formal trg !! maybe we could also lose SITREP, LOCSTAT etc etc any suggestions.
  15. CGS

    CGS War Hero Moderator


    You have hit the nail on the head. The whole point is that there is a process of convergence ahead. The other services are already ahead of us in that they have no barrier to commissioning an OR at almost any stage and that the potential for staff training and subsequently command (or appointment to difficulty 1 / 2 MS posts) is actually quite real. This is borne out by looking at the current ACSC intake, where the RN and the RAF have a much more diverse cross-section of student body.

    If your argument is based upon the belief that the LE fraternity is actually not up to the job, then maybe a quick study of wartime brevet ranks would be in order? If you are otherwise suggesting that the LE fratenity is intellectually inferior to you or I, then surely you would applaud the chance for them to receive additional education (such as a spell at the RMA?)

    If you are sucking lemons (as I suspect...) then what is the route cause of your problem? Are you worried that giving LEs parity will create greater and unwelcome competition for you? Has a QM managed to get inside your OODA loop and upset you?