Re: Fresco II ( merged FF discussions)

Discussion in 'The NAAFI Bar' started by Unknown_Quantity, Jan 25, 2003.

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  1. so soon, people are still shakng the sand out of thier boots!

    Does the FBU honestly think that public opinion will see them through this?

    They sailed close to the wind before, how are they going to fair this time round?
  2. i think they have seized on G W Bush statement that the war is over as their green flag to go back to striking
  3. ging-war - this time it is the FF, that want to strike, as the FBU wanted the members to accept the last deal put forward by the local government councils. But anyway they are all going to come un-stuck this time..
  4. So.. we will know the way forward after May 15th re strikes.

    I cannot believe the firemen want another round of strikes. They have lost public support already  for a 40% rise and more strikes will not help their cause at all except to entrench positions.

    Come on firemen - listen to your FBU. They want a settlement at 16% which is achievable with the changes in working practices. More strikes will not help your case at all !

  5. Ramillies, the Firemen are the FBU . Weren`t you lot telling us not to follow Gilchrist just a few months ago ?

    There is no 16% settlement .... It`s only 4% .

    The changes they want will make the job more dangerous for us and the public .

    Firefighters will never accept this offer so it`s up to Prescott to impose . Let`s see if he`s got the balls for it .

    Deputy Prime Minister statement to Parliament on fire strike

    In a statement on the current fire strike to Parliament, Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott said that the government 'will do what we have to do' to protect the public.

    Mr Prescott outlined the events since 2 September that have led to the current position including the publication of Sir George Bain's Position Paper which he called 'comprehensive, practical and forward-looking'.

    The Deputy Prime Minister reinforced his appreciation for the services of the Armed Forces, the Police and 'all the others who are actively engaged in providing cover' during the strike. He stressed however that it is 'an emergency, not a replacement, service'.

    Mr Prescott said:

    "No matter how professional our Armed Forces are, no matter how much they train, it is clear that it could not provide the same level of service that we normally expect - particularly where major incidents such as a terrorist attack or a rail crash are concerned."

    However, the Deputy Prime Minister regretfully informed the House that no agreement has been reached with the Fire Brigades Union on assistance for a major incident. He said:

    "...the FBU has not given an undertaking to abide even by the spirit of the 1979 TUC Code on the Provision of Emergency or Essential Services. I believe this adds to the wrong and irresponsible decisions the FBU have taken."

    Mr Prescott said in conclusion:

    "Our joint obligation - the Government, the employers and the firefighters - is to provide the highest level of safety. That is our job. We all have an obligation to work towards it. I say talk - don't walk."
  7. some extracts from the independent report.
    The  summary report can be found at the bottom link

    11. We have considered the pay of the Fire Service. Chapter 8 sets out the detail of our findings. We engaged the services of consultants experienced in dealing with these matters. Comparing pay with people doing jobs with similar sorts of weight in the public and private sectors, and taking into account evidence of market rates, we did not find a case for an increase in pay for firefighters and control room staff. But on the basis of large-scale changes along the lines we recommend, where new career paths are opened up and new skills are displayed, there is a case for the introduction of a new reward structure.

    12. Under the new structure, average levels of pay should be higher when the programme of reform has been delivered. When substantial negotiations on reform begin, we propose a first payment of 4 per cent, backdated to November 2002; and a paybill increase of 7 per cent could be made from November 2003 provided that the total reform programme has been agreed by that date and implementation is on track as verified by an independent audit process. We believe that the cost will be more than outweighed by the savings which will result from the reforms we have proposed.

    13. There needs to be a new pay structure based around IPDS to encourage and enable mobility and flexibility as key features. The system should be competence-based. As for the future, we believe it would be in the interests of all to negotiate a multi-year settlement. We recognise that employers and union may wish to agree a formal uprating mechanism based on a formula, once the reform package has been agreed and implementation is on track.

    and the recommendations of the report

    What will it take other than £30,000 to keep them happy? 2 day week at £35 per hour? probably
  8. If you want to see the pay offer it`s here......

    The only "guaranteed" offer on pay is 4% . Everything else is all if , but or maybe .

    Even under the best case scenario , I , a long service Firefighter , will recieve £25,000 by July 2004 .
    At present a long service Firefighter is on £22,500 p.a.
    Work it out yourself .... It aint 16%.

    Read the offer carefully .... They won`t even guarantee at least one day off per week .
  9. OK but you cannot expect a straight 16% without some caveats surely ?

    What is wrong with £25K a year working 4 to 5 days a week ? In the Armed Forces it is 24/7. If the pay was that poor why are there so many recruits wanting to join the fire service ? They wouldn't join unless they wanted to.

    The fireservice is like the Armed Forces. People join for a variety of reasons but money is not one of them. It is a vocation. 4% with the hope of more is more than enough when compared to the rises the Armed Forces and the Police have recently experienced.

    Do not devalue your excellent and well respected profession by falling out with the public, within yourselves and others over money. If you do, the fireservice will suffer and it will never be the same again.
  10. Slackjack - As normal you tell us things, that is all maybe's? . I see it as an offer, it does not say maybe anywhere that I can see.

    It says under 3. at least 2 periods of 24hrs of a week. and even if it does not there is the work time regulations.

    Your working hours would be 42 per week (average) including 3 hours for meal breaks, every day!! so you work  at £25,000 P.A. that works out at £11.44 per hour!! and that includes 15 hours of meal breaks per 5 day working.

    I think you lot want your £40,000 are holding out for it, but there is no way you will get it, the local councils cant afford it for one.

    What other public workers have got a pay rise anything close to what you are asking? none.. because they know it is not possible and most are not in a position to  try and blackmail the WHOLE COUNTRY just because of the job you can withold your labour from.
  11. Ex-dvr.....2 periods of 24hrs of per week doesn`t give you a day off ...If you work 6 hr shifts (which the employers will not rule out) you can work every day and still have 4 x 24hr periods off per week .

    3 hrs of meal breaks per 24hrs.....We have to turn out to calls during meal breaks ... we don`t get the time back .

    £11.44 per hour ......the same pay when on nights and weekends ....Not many other workers work unsocial hours for no extra pay .

    The Original claim was for £30k ... Not £40K.  which if paid in full would put up council tax by about 40 pence per week .

    What other public workers have got a pay rise anything close to what we are asking? .......Consultants have turned down an offer of 24% and are threatening to withdraw from the Health service .

    All public services (not Police or Armed Forces) can withdraw their labour if they wish . Nurses and Ambulance staff have both gone on strike in the past , it`s a basic human right .

    : Ramillies......Those caveats you talk of , if accepted, will mean that in 2 or 3 yrs time when you call the Fire Brigade you will be told there are no appliances available because were busy . It happens now with the Police and the Ambulance service , do you really want that to happen with the Fire Service ?

    The Employers want to remove the standards of fire cover and reduce the number of operational firefighters by 15%
    Standards of fire cover at present will get you a fire appliance in 5 minutes (if your in a Town or City) . When they`re gone there will be no limit to the time it takes for one to arrive .

    Even though you are totally against us I would urge all of you to find out about what "modernisation" means .It will affect you and your families .
    In years to come , don`t blame the firefighters when the fire engine you called for turns up to late ,we`re doing everything we can to stop that from happening .
  12. Slackjack - my mistake on the £40,000 slippy fingers is my excuse for that one.

    I can't produce figures just my experience, there is more than you think on a standard pay rate of pay.

    I personally do not know of anybody except Hm forces (only cause they get a daily rate of pay irrespective of hours worked) that get paid for meal-breaks wether they get them or not.

    No I do not know all the "modernisations" that they want to carry out to the FB. But some modernisation must happen. can you put your hand on your heart and say what they will be for a fact?

    Maybe we will not blame the FF for turning up late for a "call"  if the cutbacks affect us all that much, but after some of the slagging the forces who do the cover for you have had  on the official FBU site and on £30,000 site. As well as some of the units who deployed to the gulf, did not go as complete units as they had to  keep those behind who had been trained to cover for any FF strikes, are you surprised you are not held in high regard.
  13. The "modernisation" that Bain recommends is a reduction of 4,500 Firefighters .These will be from the 35,000 Wholetime Operational posts and won`t include HQ or fire prevention staff (he sees fire prevention as the future).
    If they don`t get rid of the 4,500 they can`t pay any more than the 4% because they don`t make any savings .

    If they bring the cuts in manpower in now we won`t be able to meet the attendance times for the standards of fire cover .That`s why they want to bring in the Integrated Risk Management Plans  (IRMP) .They`l use a system similar to the ambulance service , they`ll prioritise and stack calls .
    They`ll also start sending a man in a van to AFA`s which is OK when it`s a false alarm but if it`s a fire he`ll have to watch it burn untill reinforcements arrive ( A Conservative MP thought this of this one).

    Maybe we will not blame the FF for turning up late for a "call"  if the cutbacks affect us all that much ?????
    The public always blame Plod or Ambo bod when they turn up late .

    I don`t blame you for being pissed of with us , if I was in your position I`m sure I`d feel the same way .

    I retire in a few months so changes in working practices won`t affect me but like most Firefighters I feel passionate about providing the best possible service to the public . Once "modernisation" has been done it will be a much more dangerous place for both Firefighters and the public alike.

    At present the Fire Service is just about the best performing of all public services and this Government is about to f*ck it up , once it has it will be gone foreever .
  14. Who cares? The skiving money grabbing bast*rds are going to have a settlement legally imposed on them by fat boy prescott anyway.

    If they don't like it, they can come and work for me, I need a couple of extra oil drum burners.

    I shall not waste my breath arguing with these t0ssers any longer, I am saving it all for the big gloat that is coming when they are told to like it or lump it ;D
  15. Don't care, not doing reasoned debate, doing reality.

    The firescroungers are taking the p1ss, putting peoples lives at risk and are NOT worth what they are asking for. I really couldn't give a t0ss wether or not you think that this is reasoned or not ;D