Range Safety question

#1
I'm looking some clarification here regarding the level of qual needed to assist on a range.

Around 4 years ago I did a CMCQ (Combat Marksman Coaching Course Qualification) to which I was informed at the end of it I was now qualified to conduct WHTs and to be range safety. It also states this on the qualification notice in my personal docs file.

I was asked to assist on the range this weekend, which I did, until I was asked if I was 1-3 qualified, which I'm not (although due to attend this course next month). Not sure if the 1-3 is the same as the Range Management Qualification (I thought that was the RCO course...). Upon declaring that I wasn't, the boss went into flap mode and ran about looking for someone who was. Didn't really bother me, as I got to sit in the console and run the targets all day :D

I was wondering if I am indeed qualified to carry out the duties mentioned above and the boss was wrong, or has the guidelines changed whereas now only 1-3 qual'd personnel can be range safety?

Clarification would be great.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#2
From memory, your boss has it arrse about face. CMCQ qualifies you to assist as a safety supervisor. You used to need RMQ to be OIC Butts or control the console.

Caveat - I do not have Pam 21 in front of me, and stand by to be corrected.
 
#3
Duke you are correct and the lads boss would have been fine using him as a range safety staff but has dropped a bollock by using him as a console I/C.
 
#4
Range safety is different to RCO, if someone has done RMQ 1-3 or the SAA course then they can do RCO, but as you were asked to assist then it shouldnt have been a problem because you weren't running the range.
Isnt running the console part of RMQ 1-3? If your boss had a drama about you standing on the firing point acting as safety then he shouldnt have let you near the console!
 
#5
RMQ1-3 allows you to be OIC butts/console or RCO. This guys boss has dropped a bollock by allowing him to run the console instead of allowing him (with his CMCQ qual) to act as safety supervisor. It would appear, as The-Duke said, he got his quals mixed up.

All he had to do was open the Range box, pick up PAM 21 and get the definitive answer, but that would have been too obvious it seems.
 
#6
Gaz. You was right and your boss was wrong perhaps he needed to go to the console and read his Pamphlet 21.

You are qualified to conduct WHT, Coach and Safety Supervise firing on Live Firing Marksmanship Training ranges (25mm, 100m, ETR, Gallery, MMTR) however you must be current that is passed your WHT within 6 months.

A couple of old terms confusing the issue Stage 1-3 referes to stages of training the battleshot which there is 5, the old system was just simply 1-3 RMQ, 4-5 FFQ.

Which basically meant the types of ranges that most 1-3 shooting was conducted on and 4- 5 conducted on.

It is now just LFMT, TLFTT, LFTT the stages of training the battleshot have not changed, the only difference is some stage 4 TLFTT shoots can be conducted on LFMT ranges as well as Field Firing Areas (automatic shoot etc)

1. Grouping / Zeroing
2. Application of Fire (Elementary and Advanced)
3. Annual Weapons Assessments (APWT, APWA)
4. Transition to Live firing Tactical Training
5. Live Firing Tactical Training

Remember you are not qualified to Conduct the range or Act as OIC Console / Butts.

Keep Shooting
 
#7
Gaz. You was right and your boss was wrong perhaps he needed to go to the console and read his Pamphlet 21.

You are qualified to conduct WHT, Coach and Safety Supervise firing on Live Firing Marksmanship Training ranges (25mm, 100m, ETR, Gallery, MMTR) however you must be current that is passed your WHT within 6 months.

A couple of old terms confusing the issue Stage 1-3 referes to stages of training the battleshot which there is 5, the old system was just simply 1-3 RMQ, 4-5 FFQ.

Which basically meant the types of ranges that most 1-3 shooting was conducted on and 4- 5 conducted on.

It is now just LFMT, TLFTT, LFTT the stages of training the battleshot have not changed, the only difference is some stage 4 TLFTT shoots can be conducted on LFMT ranges as well as Field Firing Areas (automatic shoot etc)

1. Grouping / Zeroing
2. Application of Fire (Elementary and Advanced)
3. Annual Weapons Assessments (APWT, APWA)
4. Transition to Live Firing Tactical Training
5. Live Firing Tactical Training

Remember you are not qualified to Conduct the range or Act as OIC Console / Butts.

Keep Shooting
 
#8
such a good post by Blacky he posted twice!
Im 'old' and out and I was RMQ 1-3.
 
#9
Are these quals time expirable - eg if you qualfify at Warmisnter all the way up to Level V (Fire and Manouvre) in say 1975, ccanyou still run a range in 2008?
 
#10
blacky said:
Gaz. You was right and your boss was wrong perhaps he needed to go to the console and read his Pamphlet 21.

You are qualified to conduct WHT, Coach and Safety Supervise firing on Live Firing Marksmanship Training ranges (25mm, 100m, ETR, Gallery, MMTR) however you must be current that is passed your WHT within 6 months.

A couple of old terms confusing the issue Stage 1-3 referes to stages of training the battleshot which there is 5, the old system was just simply 1-3 RMQ, 4-5 FFQ.

Which basically meant the types of ranges that most 1-3 shooting was conducted on and 4- 5 conducted on.

It is now just LFMT, TLFTT, LFTT the stages of training the battleshot have not changed, the only difference is some stage 4 TLFTT shoots can be conducted on LFMT ranges as well as Field Firing Areas (automatic shoot etc)

1. Grouping / Zeroing
2. Application of Fire (Elementary and Advanced)
3. Annual Weapons Assessments (APWT, APWA)
4. Transition to Live Firing Tactical Training
5. Live Firing Tactical Training

Remember you are not qualified to Conduct the range or Act as OIC Console / Butts.

Keep Shooting
Excellent answer blacky, many thanks for the info. Nice to know I was right (for once :D)
 
#11
Outstanding said:
Are these quals time expirable - eg if you qualfify at Warmisnter all the way up to Level V (Fire and Manouvre) in say 1975, ccanyou still run a range in 2008?
*Anti Wah on*

You would have to be qualified(done the relevent course/s), authorised(recieved training and been formally tested), current(have a working knowledge of the most up-to-date rules contained in the relevent PAMs) and competent (you must have ticked all the afore mentioned boxes ie:- current, qualified and authorised) to run a range 33 years after passing the course.

*Anti Wah Off*

So, unless you have been running ranges pretty much consitantly for the last 33 years then the short answer is no.
 
#12
Gaz3447 said:
blacky said:
Gaz. You was right and your boss was wrong perhaps he needed to go to the console and read his Pamphlet 21.

You are qualified to conduct WHT, Coach and Safety Supervise firing on Live Firing Marksmanship Training ranges (25mm, 100m, ETR, Gallery, MMTR) however you must be current that is passed your WHT within 6 months.

A couple of old terms confusing the issue Stage 1-3 referes to stages of training the battleshot which there is 5, the old system was just simply 1-3 RMQ, 4-5 FFQ.

Which basically meant the types of ranges that most 1-3 shooting was conducted on and 4- 5 conducted on.

It is now just LFMT, TLFTT, LFTT the stages of training the battleshot have not changed, the only difference is some stage 4 TLFTT shoots can be conducted on LFMT ranges as well as Field Firing Areas (automatic shoot etc)

1. Grouping / Zeroing
2. Application of Fire (Elementary and Advanced)
3. Annual Weapons Assessments (APWT, APWA)
4. Transition to Live Firing Tactical Training
5. Live Firing Tactical Training

Remember you are not qualified to Conduct the range or Act as OIC Console / Butts.

Keep Shooting
Excellent answer blacky, many thanks for the info. Nice to know I was right (for once :D)
Question is now, though, do you have the big hairy love spuds to tell your boss this... 8)

Go on... you know you want to! :lol:
 
#13
Send me a PM and I can tell him for you.

Subtle as a brick in the face me.

Confusion has arisen recently ref the ability of CMCQ qualified personnel to conduct WHTs.
However this does not excuse the inability of an RCO to do his ******* job right and check the current pam21 (On the assumption that he had one).
 
#14
Lurgan_Stoop said:
Send me a PM and I can tell him for you.

Subtle as a brick in the face me.

Confusion has arisen recently ref the ability of CMCQ qualified personnel to conduct WHTs.
However this does not excuse the inability of an RCO to do his * job right and check the current pam21 (On the assumption that he had one).
My bold.

IIRC All range standing orders include the phase 'Conducting Officers must be in possetion of Pam 21...' :roll:

Double bo11ock dropped perhaps?
 
#17
1-3 RMQ (SA90)you could run (RCO)any gallery range but for APWT which had to be a WO/Off . 4-5 was RCO field fire ranges . you had to be an NCO , if you got busted down Pte you had to take the courses again
range safety staff are normally NCO , that was some time back
may i ask but it was said you could run a range if you are SAA trained ?
 
#18
you usually do RMQ 1-3 as part of the SAA, or you used to.
 
#19
Lurgan_Stoop said:
Send me a PM and I can tell him for you.

Subtle as a brick in the face me.

Confusion has arisen recently ref the ability of CMCQ qualified personnel to conduct WHTs.
However this does not excuse the inability of an RCO to do his * job right and check the current pam21 (On the assumption that he had one).
He was in possession of a PAM21, but ''must be in possession of" and "must read" are two different things ;)
 
#20
devilish said:
Outstanding said:
Are these quals time expirable - eg if you qualfify at Warmisnter all the way up to Level V (Fire and Manouvre) in say 1975, ccanyou still run a range in 2008?
*Anti Wah on*

You would have to be qualified(done the relevent course/s), authorised(recieved training and been formally tested), current(have a working knowledge of the most up-to-date rules contained in the relevent PAMs) and competent (you must have ticked all the afore mentioned boxes ie:- current, qualified and authorised) to run a range 33 years after passing the course.

*Anti Wah Off*

No wah, so where does it say that?

So, unless you have been running ranges pretty much consitantly for the last 33 years then the short answer is no.
 
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