RAF turned down chance to buy F117 Stealth Fighters

diverman

LE
Book Reviewer
'JORN' tracks the hole in the background noise a plane makes. The maths to do it are rather exquisite and the radar is simply huge.
Same concept using passive sonar to track submarines, don't look for the sub but look for the acoustic hole in the background noise of the ocean
 

diverman

LE
Book Reviewer
A bit Clancy-esque, Mush? Only feasible if the construction (not a five-minute job) and deployment remain totally covert and undetected.
BAe did have the Skyhook concept of turning commercial container carriers into Harrier capable ships using containerised equipment including Rapier.
 
Same concept using passive sonar to track submarines, don't look for the sub but look for the acoustic hole in the background noise of the ocean
You've been reading too much Patrick Robinson...
 
But you need to know what is "normal" and what is "F-117 into my airspace", you need to work out how to differentiate between "F-117" and "flock of geese" and "own aircraft", and you need to be able to see behind the flock of geese to see the "F-117".

So, simple in theory; in practice, treat yourself...

Edit - and lets not forget the impact of the environment - radar behaves differently on a warm summer's day than it does under high pressure gloom in the winter. Modelling lots of different transmitter types (especially if you don't own them) on a near continuous basis alone takes up lots of time and computing power.
Having worked on Rapier FSC during it's development, the Geese (Eagles, Kites, Gulls, etc...) issues are \ were not fun to sort out
 
However, my point to @ThunderBox is that JORN sites are not invulnerable.
Never said they were invulnerable, nor a silver bullet


With respect @ThunderBox, I increasingly get the impression that your understanding of OTH systems and Air Defence more generally is somewhat limited.
I dont claim to have vast Air Defence knowledge, in fact I am not saying much different to you.

Firstly, the physics of how radar interacts with the ionosphere means that OTH system performance varies significantly based on the time of day, the season, regional weather, solar activity and space weather (eg solar flares) and geomagnetic variations (such as those caused by a major earthquake). That affects volume of coverage (areas covered, maximum and minimum detection ranges, as well as the target altitudes likely to be detected) significantly.
Like I said, I never stated its a perfect weapon, its a club in the bag.

Now, I absolutely agree that Australia are amongst the leaders in OTH technology and JORN is enormously impressive from what I know of it. However, even the RAAF's own gouge on JORN recognises that they can't alter the laws of physics! Of note, MH370 flew for a considerable period though nominal JORN coverage before its disappearance but the RAAF admitted that:

'...Given range from individual OTHRs, the ionospheric conditions and a lack of information on MH370’s possible flight path towards Australia, it is unlikely that MH370 would have been detected if the system had been operational.'

Moreover, OTH radars do not provide 360 degree coverage and for good strategic reasons, JORN coverage is orientated northwards as shown below.



Now, call me a bluff old traditionalist, but this appears to show significant gaps in JORN coverage should a state (realistically Russia or China for the foreseeable future in this case) or state sponsored actor wish to target key JORN elements with submarine launched (or even air launched) long range cruise missiles. Remember that that does not have to be the JORN antennae themselves; note the publicly acknowledged JORN C2 facility at RAAF Edinburgh for instance.
Never said that it is invulnerable, but its locations have been chosen for a reason, to be as difficult to reach as possible. This was all I said, I merely stated it doesnt have to move, its quite hard to hit.

I don't believe that anyone has ever mentioned SCUDs. Nevertheless, emerging BM design and hypersonic boost-cruise systems such as the Russian YU-71 or Chinese WU-14 mean that ballistic threats cannot be discounted in the future.
SCUDs were mentioned prior to my response hence I mentioned the vast disctances involved, my initial post was ICBM would probably be the best way to take out the sites.


As I've explained above, weapons can be routed outside of JORN coverage, or coordinated with known periods of ionospheric disturbance. Even if it is detected, the very small size of the ADF v the enormous size of Australia means that it is extremely unlikely that weapons can be brought to bear, particularly against in a pre-emptive strike. I will reiterate that only Russia probably has the capability to conduct such an op right now and I can’t see Australia meriting such attention if we’re in a shooting war.

My overall point is that suggesting JORN is invulnerable or provides an impenetrable barrier is Maginot Line thinking. There’s always a way.

Regards,
MM
My overall point was that barring a very successful and difficult attack by a dedicated peer state or with ICBM you would have to work pretty hard to hit it and put it out of action and I think you have acknowledged that with the solutions (Container Ships with Cruise Missiles and Submarines travelling thousands of miles to get behind the system), and the statement that Russia is possibly the only threat, not a bad system if its only threat is a superpower.

Like I said, I dont regard it as an impenetrable barrier, have never hinted at that. Even if Aus had the best early warning in the world, I dont see any reason for Australia to be attacked or likelihood of it happening, I certainly do not thing OTHR is any where as near as good as radar and especially the Wedgetail aircraft, except in the fact that it might spot a large flotilla leaving some distant shores to allow us to send over a better asset.
 
I'd suggest that JORN's locations have less to do with being difficult to reach and more to do with being in the right places to give the best coverage.

Nobody's going to trek way out into the Outback just for the sake of it; logistically that makes poor sense.
 
(...)
Moreover, OTH radars do not provide 360 degree coverage and for good strategic reasons, JORN coverage is orientated northwards as shown below.



Now, call me a bluff old traditionalist, but this appears to show significant gaps in JORN coverage should a state (realistically Russia or China for the foreseeable future in this case) or state sponsored actor wish to target key JORN elements with submarine launched (or even air launched) long range cruise missiles. Remember that that does not have to be the JORN antennae themselves; note the publicly acknowledged JORN C2 facility at RAAF Edinburgh for instance.
(...)

Nevertheless, I’ve already stated that, if JORN is in the business of countering LO assets as others have suggested, you’re assuming a state-on-state conflict against China (or perhaps Russia). I would hope that that is extremely unlikely for the foreseeable future!
(...)
When JORN was built, Indonesia was far and away viewed by the general public as the biggest threat to Australia, with China or Russia not even in the same league.

Here's a typical example: What Indonesia’s rise means for Australia
Australia’s distant allies might see a clash with Indonesia as just a little local conflict irrelevant to their interests, so we could not assume they would offer much help. During the 1950s, the possibility that we might need to defend ourselves from our new neighbour unaided became a central issue in Australia’s defence and foreign policy.
and
Even so, Indonesia has never lost its special place in Australian defence planning. In the decade and a half after Vietnam, when the military missions of the Australian Defence Force (ADF) were limited to local defence, Indonesia remained the only conceivable threat. Since the 1970s, Australia’s armed forces have been primarily designed to defend against the kind of pinprick raids on our territory that are all Indonesia’s military could manage. Indeed, behind the diplomatic evasions, the government’s 2013 defence White Paper, released in May, makes clear this is still the ADF’s priority.
I think that the author's depiction of "distant allies" seeing conflict with Indonesia being "just a little local conflict irrelevant to their interests" is quite apt, given that your long and detailed post focused on Britain's concerns about Russia and China but nowhere even mentioned Indonesia!

Have a look at what JORN is aimed at and you can see that it makes sense from an Australian perspective, even if it doesn't serve Britain's (or the US's) own defence interests.
 
Never said they were invulnerable, nor a silver bullet...I never stated its a perfect weapon, its a club in the bag...
No, but with respect, you did imply something very similar by stating the following:

...[JORN]...doesn't need to...[move]...it's too far away from danger...A cruise missile, sub launched or ship launched is not going to target a OTHR facility without warning...
I think that we've established that those are factually incorrect statements and that cruise missiles and other methods can deny JORN without prior detection.

...[JORN]...locations have been chosen for a reason, to be as difficult to reach as possible...
As mentioned by @Cold_Collation, the sites will have been selected based on required coverage and the laws of physics. The fact that they are in the 'GAFA' is arguably a secondary benefit.

...My overall point was that barring a very successful and difficult attack by a dedicated peer state or with ICBM you would have to work pretty hard to hit it and put it out of action and I think you have acknowledged that with the solutions (Container Ships with Cruise Missiles and Submarines travelling thousands of miles to get behind the system), and the statement that Russia is possibly the only threat, not a bad system if its only threat is a superpower...
Mmmm, that's not quite what you said but I'm glad that you've tacitly acknowledged that cruise missiles can target the system. Remember also that we need to take a longer term view of emerging threats. There are ongoing upgrades planned for JORN so hopefully that will address some of the vulnerabilities against emerging threats and scenarios.

When JORN was built, Indonesia was far and away viewed by the general public as the biggest threat to Australia...
I know. That's why I stated that 'for good strategic reasons JORN, coverage is orientated north.'

...I think that the author's depiction of "distant allies" seeing conflict with Indonesia being "just a little local conflict irrelevant to their interests" is quite apt, given that your long and detailed post focused on Britain's concerns about Russia and China but nowhere even mentioned Indonesia!...
See above.

However, the discussion was not about why JORN is configured as it is, it was about @ThunderBox's blanket assertion that the sites were 'out of danger' and that cruise missiles could not target elements of the system without warning.

As I have repeatedly stated, only peer nations have the required capabilities and Indonesia is not one of them.

...Have a look at what JORN is aimed at and you can see that it makes sense from an Australian perspective, even if it doesn't serve Britain's (or the US's) own defence interests.
Again, see my first point.

However, I don't believe that either the UK or the US have ever considered that a confrontation between Asutralia and Indonesia would be irrelevant to them (not least due to the Five Power Defence Agreement and other formal and historical ties), or that JORN is not serve their respective defence interests.

Chinese ambitions in the SCS and beyond are arguably increasing that relevance.

Regards,
MM
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
We, Oz, NZ & the infant Malaysia put considerable effort into putting the Indons back in their box in the 60s.
 
@Magic_Mushroom

I am not going to say anything more after this, I do not pretend to know more than you nor do I challenge your knowledge but I think you mistook me for some who is in wonderment by OTHR, I am not.

This was all I said:

[I have a couple of friends who work on the Jindalee project, whilst we don't talk shop, they never move and neither does the installation, but it doesn't need to, it's too far away from danger.

It would take an ICBM or two to knock it out by which time Wedgetail would be airborne and the yanks and pommies woul b steaming to our rescue ;-)
By too far away from danger I did not mean it is invulnerable, my thought process was, by the time you have attacked it, it's pretty worthless anyway because you are in range of better assets, such as Wedgetail, and we would need all our allies steaming here to help us.

In fact, as you pointed out, if you got within range of the sites, you would probably be better off strategically hitting RAAF Williamtown, the Army in Townsville and our Maritime patrol and Submarine factory in Adelaide because our OTHR is f...all use at a C3 asset.
 
We flew Harriers onto Atlantic Conveyor for transport south.
600 of them according to the insurance claim.

By the time the insurance claim was finished the conveyor would have been that big we could have launched and recovered the Vulcan fleet off her.
 
@ThunderBox

To leave on this a positive note, I think we can both agree that JORN is a class leading OTH system, tailor made to Australia's strategic environment.

Regards,
MM
 
996 radar had no issue tracking "stealth". Neither did 968 (outside of 30-40 miles). That's when they were in their 'stealth-ed up mode' too.
 
...That's when they were in their 'stealth-ed up mode' too.
Without wishing to go into TTPs, if you're talking about GW2, they weren't. I also never saw one feet wet (in Kosovo or GW2) so I'd be interested to know where you were!

Equally, we should probably avoid mention of actual sensor performance and ranges...just a thought!

Regards,
MM
 
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As a child of the 60s our VHF 405 lines TV used to alter at the approach of an aircraft.
I'd guess that was more likely due to their own RF emissions than blocking of the signal, unless they were flying VERY close to your house!
 

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