Racism is systemic in England - it must be true 'cause the UN says so

You insulted me over a comment not even aimed at you. Even "hilariously" editing my post, which was mild banter at the end of the day. You took a flippant comment and made it about you. Try to deny that, old man.

A comment explaining certain moderation considerations as people were curious.

After trying to explain over a number of posts, it's clear you had a bee in your bonnet and we weren't getting anywhere so I felt it best to remove it all, to avoid thread drift.

Again you took this personally.

Look, I get it, you're angry. I'd rather you vent it here, than in real life.

Now... Calmly, in your own words, point to the teddy and tell me where the Internet hurt you..

Of course I took it personally and why shouldn't I? You made a sweeping statement about my generation which was based on your experience of talking to a few old men, the same statement which you now say was flippant.

No I didn't make it about me, I made it about being able to live quite happily in communities that were people of different races, which we did. I made it about having workmates and friends from all different ethnic backgrounds all getting together with their families for a barbecue and getting along just fine, I made it about not all old men are racists despite what you believe.

I challenged you on a now "flippant" statement you made and when you didn't like where is was going you shut it down and came back with the weak reply you didn't want it to derail the thread which it wasn't anyway.

Then you started with the insults and the attempts at belittling me. Oh the fecking irony of it.

You're a hypocrite! Goodbye!
 
But you've still given me no estimates of the lives lost solely due to the actions of Capitalist gobments. Is there any reason for that?

MsG

Yes
Because whilst governments of all stripes have caused deaths as have industries and colonists / explorers - The stand out difference between all this and socialist /communist government murders is that all have been done for profit or to claim land or plain incompetance or even in the case of Leopold and the Congo just because the man is a complete cnut - Communism has murdereded millions for its ideology - millions because they think the wrong way. Nobody has been dragged off to gulags and silenced for speaking against capitalism.

Morally Fascism is little better although its achieved nowhere near the death toll* - I suspect thats because its never recovered its 1930s popularity - since its muddled with Nazism and thus we see few fascist governments or people clamouring for them. So it just hasent had the chance.

Communism hasent gone the same way sadly - but thats because academics get to preach at students who know no better and extol its virtues. Remember che Guevara good thatcher evil and so wearing T shirts of the former is hip and applauded- (Only one of those was a homophobic racist and it wasnt Thatcher ) and of course the No 1 get out clause "Yes but that wasnt real socialism). Well it seems to have repeated itself so often that in human hands im afraid that is exactly what real socialism will continue to look like.



*No it hasent 1930s/40s Germany wasnt fascist** - That was a label applied to them by Stalin sins he didnt want the Socialist worker bit of the name confusing things in the ideological war - It was Nazism not Facism (or socialism) that murdered 6 million jews.

** Yes he borrowed a ew bits (mainy symbology) but he borrowed lots from socialism to - command economy welfare state etc - its just he applied socialism not on class but ethnic lines.
 

riksavage

War Hero
The left whitewash (should that be backwash in today’s wold?) anything that’s critical of the Demi-gods of left wing ideology. I recall watching ‘Dunce-Abbot’ praise Mao for liberating the masses from feudalism in front of a shell shocked Michael Portillo. Portillo reminded her of the tens of millions of Chinese that died as a result of Mao’s ‘great leap backwards’, she considered that an acceptable sacrifice.

I also note a current trend referring to UKs black community as English-Africans. The scourge of USisms creeping into the UK. All this does is divide, not unite communities. Will whites start referring to themselves as English Anglo Saxons?
 
@Themanwho is right about this thread. I'm actually surprised it's gone very well (in my opinion) and a really good example of how racism *should be* discussed.

Even Bugsy has chipped in with some thought provoking contributions (although I did have to edit his first post slightly).

Sadly though, there are a number of racist individuals on this site. Whether they are "proper" racists I doubt, but certainly they post some stuff that would certainly warrant a visit from the filth if other members didn't flag it up and the moderators didn't zap it quickly enough.

I've made this point before, but it's easy to read through the threads and think "yeah, playground stuff" - but the fact is, a lot of it is removed before most get a chance to read it.

Agree - it is still a minority though.
Do you always call our Police Force 'the filth' or is that a 'playground' word you use for some other org who moderate you/this site?
 

Boris_Johnson

ADC
Moderator
DirtyBAT
Of course I took it personally and why shouldn't I? You made a sweeping statement about my generation which was based on your experience of talking to a few old men, the same statement which you now say was flippant.

Jesus you don't half overreact

Let me just point out the monumental stupidity of the argument you've based this all on ok....? Then you can gnash, snarl and fume away all you want and I'll leave you to it. (Over a comment not relevant to you nonetheless, let's remember).

I made a casual statement about moderation considerations, allowing for the fact some of our elder members (not you), are not as "PC". You then "edited" this in your reply to "not as brainwashed".

Now. Very slowly...

Do you understand you've pretty much emphasised my point for me there? As in regardless of how I describe it, and regardless of how you describe it, there are certain considerations to be made when it comes to moderation?

I actually thought it was just funny banter at this point, after all, this site is mainly ex-mil, isn't it? Thick skinned, no snowflakes here sir. And given this I reply, "we're not brainwashed, we just know we can't get away with the sweet old codger routine".

For some reason this sends you off into a rant about doing your generation a disservice, and how my generation is this, that the other and pretty much caused this whole racial mess we're in now etc.

Obviously I try to point out you're taking this way too far, we've all got our flaws etc, but you're not letting this go. For some reason a comment not aimed at you nor personal in any way (ironically was one of consideration, not pisstaking) has made you very angry indeed.

Since it's pointless arguing I decided to remove it all as we had potential to derail a good thread. But rather than accept this, you demand to know why I've removed our handbags.

There's a thread in the Hole for pointless arguments. You're also welcome to PM me if you think I've got it wrong. And there's always admin you can email if you don't feel comfortable talking to me directly.

Bear in mind though, your whole beef is based on me being considerate to people's circumstances, which you agree with, albeit describe differently "not as PC / brainwashed" (I'll let you decide which of the two is more derogatory). And bear in mind your subsequent arguments are all based on slagging a generation off... The one which your generation raised.
 
It fact that slave trade was one of the few that explicitly wasn't founded on racism. No really, hear me out. When European traders sailed to the west coast of Africa with cargo holds full of goods looking to do some business, the black people they met offered in trade other black people who they had already enslaved. That's the elephant in the corner of all of this. The black slave-sellers in Africa were regarded as businessmen by the Europeans, same as any white businessmen.

Obviously when viewed through a modern lens the Europeans absolutely should not have gone along with this and said, hoist the anchors lads we'll look for business elsewhere. But the historical truth is that Europeans simply joined into an existing slave trade, they didn't create it, and a few years later, they ended it.

Edited to add: anyone who is a descendent of a slave now living in America would otherwise have still been a descendent of a slave, but living in West Africa. Might even still be a slave.
Try looking at muslim slavers if you want to see racism in action. Of course the wokerati give islam a get out
of jail card. I wonder why ?
 

Boris_Johnson

ADC
Moderator
DirtyBAT
Try looking at muslim slavers if you want to see racism in action. Of course the wokerati give islam a get out
of jail card. I wonder why ?

You see that a lot whenever there's a terrorist incident. They're usually the first to start posting their "hash tag notallmuslims" on Twatter.

Oddly tho, after the Sarah Everard incident the same crowd were 'hash tagging' "all men". The hypocrisy of the Left is shocking sometimes.

(The Right too, but that's a different argument for a different time).
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
Yes
Because whilst governments of all stripes have caused deaths as have industries and colonists / explorers - The stand out difference between all this and socialist /communist government murders is that all have been done for profit or to claim land or plain incompetance or even in the case of Leopold and the Congo just because the man is a complete cnut - Communism has murdereded millions for its ideology - millions because they think the wrong way. Nobody has been dragged off to gulags and silenced for speaking against capitalism.

Morally Fascism is little better although its achieved nowhere near the death toll* - I suspect thats because its never recovered its 1930s popularity - since its muddled with Nazism and thus we see few fascist governments or people clamouring for them. So it just hasent had the chance.

Communism hasent gone the same way sadly - but thats because academics get to preach at students who know no better and extol its virtues. Remember che Guevara good thatcher evil and so wearing T shirts of the former is hip and applauded- (Only one of those was a homophobic racist and it wasnt Thatcher ) and of course the No 1 get out clause "Yes but that wasnt real socialism). Well it seems to have repeated itself so often that in human hands im afraid that is exactly what real socialism will continue to look like.



*No it hasent 1930s/40s Germany wasnt fascist** - That was a label applied to them by Stalin sins he didnt want the Socialist worker bit of the name confusing things in the ideological war - It was Nazism not Facism (or socialism) that murdered 6 million jews.

** Yes he borrowed a ew bits (mainy symbology) but he borrowed lots from socialism to - command economy welfare state etc - its just he applied socialism not on class but ethnic lines.
If I've understood your extremely simplistic viewpoint correctly; killing folks for profit, land-grab etc is OK, while killing for ideological reasons is bad. I don't suppose I could convince you that senseless killing for ANY reason is really not a good idea, could I?

MsG
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
If I've understood your extremely simplistic viewpoint correctly; killing folks for profit, land-grab etc is OK, while killing for ideological reasons is bad. I don't suppose I could convince you that senseless killing for ANY reason is really not a good idea, could I?

MsG

please cite examples of capitalist Governments systematically murdering millions for idiolgical reasons.
 
If I've understood your extremely simplistic viewpoint correctly;
You havent In fact I'd go so far as to say - youre level of missunderstanding is to great to be an accident and is just so you can look clever and pithy

killing folks for profit, land-grab etc is OK, while killing for ideological reasons is bad.

rolls eyes

I don't suppose I could convince you that senseless killing for ANY reason is really not a good idea, could I?

MsG

Such a shame that all to many socialists have no problem calling for and justifying the murder of Bankers - Tories - people on the right** - in order to get the fairer society they believe in - but of course thats not senseless thats required to make a better world for all - which rather brings us back to my point - Nobody was killed in the name of capitalism

Communism and socialism have murdered millions for wrong think and will do so in the future - because socialists will justify violence against those they dissagree with in the name of equality - tolerance.

I will be clear its not socialism itself thats the problem its the people who advocate it and particuarly those who run it.



**At least fascist dictatorships didnt claim the death camps were to make a better world.
 

Dwarf

LE
American War of Independence.. @ 10,000 KIA on either side.
poor effort, a SMERCH execution unit could beat that in a busy mornings work.

At the risk of thread drift, even that is possibly an over-estimate; I've seen the combat death toll as low as 5000+ per side over eight years.

Basically, it was a war that no-one wanted to fight apart from the committed minority who wanted independence from Britain.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
At the risk of thread drift, even that is possibly an over-estimate; I've seen the combat death toll as low as 5000+ per side over eight years.

Basically, it was a war that no-one wanted to fight apart from the committed minority who wanted independence from Britain.

Americans get very upset when you tell them their ‘War of Independence’ was actually some very half hearted hand bagging by a father and son until Dad got fed up and took his ball home.

They get even more upset when you point out how many of the relatively small number of KIA were French and German mercenaries on either side.
 
Try looking at muslim slavers if you want to see racism in action. Of course the wokerati give islam a get out
of jail card. I wonder why ?
They're petrified of them?
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
Nobody was killed in the name of capitalism
I've left out the rest of your post. That one display of spectacularly stunning (and perhaps wilful?) ignorance tells me that all you want to do, as before, is to justify the colossal number of deaths directly attributable to Capitalism with your usual, tired argument of: Capitalism - good, Communism/Socialism (whatever you actually understand by the terms) - bad.

My contention is that ALL deaths, whether directly or indirectly caused by some ideology or in the zealous pursuit of financial profits come what may, are fundamentally wrong and should never have happened in the first place.

You're doing your level best to place me in the camp of those defending Communism/Socialism at all costs. I realise that fits your primitive narrative, but it's not where I am and never has been. I've never denied that I'm a committed Socialist, but I've always remained very critical of the social and political policies of those countries purporting to be either "Communist" or "Socialist". I thought I'd made that clear in the hundreds of responses I've posted on the subject. Apparently, you didn't get the memo - or you decided to ignore it.

MsG
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
I've left out the rest of your post. That one display of spectacularly stunning (and perhaps wilful?) ignorance tells me that all you want to do, as before, is to justify the colossal number of deaths directly attributable to Capitalism with your usual, tired argument of: Capitalism - good, Communism/Socialism (whatever you actually understand by the terms) - bad.

My contention is that ALL deaths, whether directly or indirectly caused by some ideology or in the zealous pursuit of financial profits come what may, are fundamentally wrong and should never have happened in the first place.

You're doing your level best to place me in the camp of those defending Communism/Socialism at all costs. I realise that fits your primitive narrative, but it's not where I am and never has been. I've never denied that I'm a committed Socialist, but I've always remained very critical of the social and political policies of those countries purporting to be either "Communist" or "Socialist". I thought I'd made that clear in the hundreds of responses I've posted on the subject. Apparently, you didn't get the memo - or you decided to ignore it.

MsG

So if we had proper socialism, all racism and killing would cease?
 
I've left out the rest of your post. That one display of spectacularly stunning (and perhaps wilful?) ignorance tells me that all you want to do, as before, is to justify the colossal number of deaths directly attributable to Capitalism
Attributable to peoples actions colonialism and capatilism - I havent disputed this - ive more than acknowledged it - but the people were not killed for ideological reasons - that is the differrence - that you are desperatly flailing around and attempting to evade - because youre deflection and whataboutery are the only arguments you can muster.


with your usual, tired argument of: Capitalism - good, Communism/Socialism (whatever you actually understand by the terms) - bad.
Yawn - I speciffically wrote something contrary to that - it was in the bit you left out, you know where i point out the problem with socialism is people.

Of course in your desperate capitalism is evil tirades you ignore that pretty much nobody espouses the strict capatilist everyman for himself ideology that socialists like to pretend they are defending us against and we are in fact much closer to the democratic socialist state -so many say they desire.

Labour and Tory, despite thje repeated claims the Tories want to close the NHS, kill the disabled etc, are really both capitalist socialist parties - the difference being where individuals feel the lines on state involvement and taxation should be drawn

My contention is that ALL deaths, whether directly or indirectly caused by some ideology or in the zealous pursuit of financial profits come what may, are fundamentally wrong and should never have happened in the first place.
Thats fine - nobody disputed that - the only person whose claimed non communist caused deaths are acceptable is you - chucking out strawmen arguments so you can make personal attacks as to people motives.

You're doing your level best to place me in the camp of those defending Communism/Socialism at all costs.

No I didnt - another straw man
I realise that fits your primitive narrative, but it's not where I am and never has been. I've never denied that I'm a committed Socialist, but I've always remained very critical of the social and political policies of those countries purporting to be either "Communist" or "Socialist". I thought I'd made that clear in the hundreds of responses I've posted on the subject.

You have - although you also rose tint facets and refuse to give a non socialist country credit

Apparently, you didn't get the memo - or you decided to ignore it.

MsG

No as ever you are reading what you want in order to win the internet.
 
As if communist countries didn't exploit the workers

It was illegal to be late for work in the Soviet union, you could be accused of sabotaging production and sent to the gulag.
 
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