Rac 1989

Discussion in 'Old & Bold' started by Peeler, Mar 1, 2012.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Hello all,

    I have been working on (for what seems like years) an ORBAT for BAOR in July 1989 at war establishment (not only the units in Germany but the reinforcements that would come over from the UK if the ballon went up). After reading dozens of regimental histories (buying almost every book about BAOR), visiting websites (like ARRSE !!), and contacting museums/associations, I'm about ready to start putting all my material together. However I wanted to see if members of ARRSE can further help me and fact check some things. So I will start to post, by each Arm or Service, what I have and hope that whatever omissions or mistakes I've made can be remedied by ARRSE members. I will start with the RAC (I am posting this in Military History, The Old and Bold, and RAC boards). Thank you in advance for any and all help.

    Peeler

    (see subsequent post)
     
  2. Regarding the Lifeguards, where I spent some time, the barracks at Windsor is 'Co(m)bermere' (probably just a typo.)

    Now being picky, but the normal abbreviations regarding Armoured, Squadron, and Regiment should read as: 'Armd' 'Sqn' and 'Regt'. It doesn't read nicely with your forms.

    In 1989, A Sqn The Lifeguards would surely not have been in role as Armd Recce in Cyprus, but, (as they were, when I was there with them in 1987/8.) as the UNFICYP Scout Car Sqn, based at Airport Camp, carrying out peacekeeping patrols in Ferrets, on part of the Green Line.
     
  3. I used to be part of the FAC for 4Div and nearly always worked with the LG or B+R.
    I may be wrong but I seem to remember the Blues moving into Lothian Bks in Feb.
    '84 and on to Athlone in Oct '86.
    Whilst in Detmold they were part of 4Div.
     
  4. Just to be pedantic :wink:

    As at July 1989

    The Queen’s Own Hussars
    Caen Barracks, Hohne
    5/85-8/93 22 Ard. Bde. Ard. Rgt. Type 57 (Challenger/Chieftain)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqd.’s
    A - Chieftain
    B - Challenger 1
    C - Chietain Stillbrew
    D - Chieftain
    Notes: Converting to Challenger, the seventh and last regiment to do so. (Challenger 1 buy was for only 7 rgt.’s)
     
  5. Gentleman thank you,
    Sorry for the typos and for the thread title. It should read RAC 1989. My fault as I was in a rush to post before going to sleep.
    Arte thank you for the suggestion I will clean it up when I return from work today. Also I wasn't too sure about the LG regarding Cyprus. Can anyone shed any further light on who provided the resident Armd Sqn and UN Sqn during the time period ?
    Fat Cav, thank you !! That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for.
    Arters, The Blues moved when 33 Armd Bde came under command of 3 Armd Div I believe.

    Peeler
     
  6. Quite right, Mate, 33 Armd Bde took over the Blues on their move down to Athlone.
    Before this move the two Regts, Blues and LG were either in Lothian or UK, when in
    Lothian they were part of 20 Armd Bde.....funny I always ended up with them, even
    though I was 11 Armd Bde FAC....Both Regts were bloody good lads, to a man, they
    always looked after me.

    I seem to remember the two Bdes in 4 div...1984...11 Bde was 'Inf heavy' and 20 Bde
    was 'Tank heavy' in other words: 11 Bde had 1 x Tank Regt and 3 x Inf Regts,
    20 Bde had 2 x Tank Regts and 1 x Inf Regt.
    This system changed when 33 Bde joined 4 Div........don't quote me!!!!
     
  7. Arte, this is where I found the LG info about A Sqn in Cyprus. UNFICYP BRITCON Units
    It actually reads Jan. 1988-July 1988 but if you look at the list it appears to be a typo. So I read it as 1989.
     
  8. A Sqn The Lifeguards did serve at Airport camp as the UNFICYP Scout Car Squadron, between Jan 88 and July 88. I was on the advance party that flew over just after Christmas 2007.

    The list you refer to is wrong, but it's not a typo. The Lifeguards line should be above the C Sqn 9th/12th Royal Lancers line. The dates printed on that list will then be in correct date order. Although January 1989 till July 1989 appears to be missing.

    Hope that helps.
     
  9. Arte, thank you very much. Now I have to find out who was actually there, any suggestions ?
     
  10. Edited post with new information and cleaned up typos & abbreviations.
     
  11. Ah, that's reading much better now mate. I'll make some enquiries about the missing 6 months in Cyprus and get back to you.
     
  12. Bovington was a designated initial dispersal site for a central govt party. The units there may have supported the incoming party.
     
  13. Hello all,

    Added the Yeomanry (thank you beardyProf on the RAC forum for reminding me). Further thanks to:
    RAC Forum
    crimsonhussar- Royal Hussars info and editing/abbreviation help
    bokkatankie- 1 RTR info
    TheBigUn- 13/18 H info
    soprano54- 3 RTR info (post 1989)

    Old & Bold Forum
    Arte et Marte- LG, Cyprus, and editing/abbreviation info
    Arters- 4 Armd Div and Household Cav info
    FatCav- QOH info

    Still trying to find out who was the UN FSC Sqn during the first 6 months of 1989, the RH role regarding UKMF/BAOR (I know from correspondence with the tank museum, they sent me the palnned RAC deployments for Jan. 1 1992, that they were planned to be in Munster 1/92 as a Type 43 regt with I believe there fourth sqn as the Cyprus Armd Recce Sqn ??) and who manned the Cyprus Armd Recce Sqn in this period. Furthermore if anyone has info about any GDP, that they can talk about, it would be appreciated.

    The Royal Armoured Corps July 1989

    The Household Cavalry (not part of the RAC but listed here because of the similar roles)
    The Life Guards
    Combermere Barracks, Windsor 1/84-1/90 Armd Recce Regt (UK)
    - HQ, A, B, C Sqns
    Notes: Two Sqns (A and C) were tracked (Scorpion/Scimitar), one each to support 5 Abn Bde and 3 Cdo Bde. The third Sqn (B) was wheeled (Fox) with a Home Defence Role (Special Duties Force)

    The Blues and Royals (Royal Horse Guards/1st Dragoons)
    Athlone Barracks, Sennelager 1/84-1/90 33 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 43 (Challenger)
    - HQ, A, B, C Sqns
    Notes: During July The Blues and Royals Battle Group (HQ, A and B Sqns plus a company from 1st Bn, The Queen’s Own Highlanders) were in Suffield, Canada (BATUS) doing an Exercise Medicine Man rotation.

    The Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment
    Hyde Park (Knightsbridge) Barracks, Kensington, London
    - HQ, Life Guards Sqn, Blues and Royals Sqn
    Notes: Unknown war role

    Cavalry of the Line

    1st The Queen’s Dragoon Guards
    Northampton Barracks, Wolfenbuttel 3/87-7/91 1 Armd Div Armd Recce Regt (BAOR-Tracked)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns
    Notes: A and B Sqns formed the Maze Prison Guard Force 5/89-7/89. Though under command of 1 Armd Div they would have formed the Covering Force for 1st BR Corps along with 16th/5th The Queen’s Royal Lancers and 664 Sqn, AAC

    The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers and Greys)
    Lumsden Barracks, Fallingsbostel 11/88-7/92 7 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 57 (Challenger)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns

    4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards
    Hobart Barracks, Detmold 4/83-7/92 20 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 57 (Chieftain)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns

    5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards
    Barker Barracks, Paderborn 11/86-7/92 11 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 57 (Chieftain)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns

    The Queen’s Own Hussars
    Caen Barracks, Hohne 5/85-8/93 22 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 57 (Challenger)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns
    Notes: Converting to Challenger, the seventh and last regiment to do so. (Challenger 1 buy was for only 7 regts). A and D Sqns were equipped with Chieftains, B Sqn had Challengers, and C Sqn had Chieftains with Stillbrew.

    The Queen’s Royal Irish Hussars
    RAC Center, Bovington Camp & Cambrai Barracks, Catterick 3/88-4/90
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns
    Notes: HQ and two Sqns supported the RAC Center Regt (Bovington) and two supported the RAC Training Regt (Catterick). Unknown war role. The Armoured Delivery Regt for 1st BR Corps was based on the RAC Training Regt, so I don’t know if this would be a composite regt or would be provided by the QRIH. Another possibility is that a post-1988 ORBAT for 1st BR Corps shows an Armd Regt coming from the UK with 19 Inf Bde (it also shows a Armd Recce Regt going to 3 Armd Div, the 9/12 L) unknown if it this unit or the Tidworth based unit (see The Royal Hussars).

    9th/12th Royal Lancers (Prince of Wales’s)
    Carver Barracks, Wimbish 1/87-7/91 3 Armd Div Armd Recce Regt (UK-tracked)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns
    Notes: B Sqn was the Guided Weapons Sqn equipped with Strikers. The other three sqns were equipped with Scimitars (no GW Troop).

    The Royal Hussars (Prince of Wales’s Own)
    Bhurtpore Barracks, Tidworth 11/88-12/90 UKMF*(see below) Armd Regt Type 57 (Chieftain)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns
    Notes: The Recce Tp was in Belize 3/89-9/89. B Sqn was base at Harman Lines, Warminster as the RAC Demonstration Sqn at the School of Infantry. C Sqn was the UKMF Armd Sqn with 14 Chieftain. However the regimental history (Keown-Boyd, Henry . Remember with Advantages: A History of the 10th, 11th, & Royal Hussars 1945-1992. Leo Cooper, London 1994) states, “The Regiment as a whole came under command of HQ United Kingdom Mobile Force and in August 1989 and February 1990, took part in two major exercises, Crimson Rambler 1 and 11, on Salisbury Plain” page 203. As the Army was looking to divest itself of the Denmark reinforcement role (it was only kept in the late 80’s for political reasons, the Chiefs wanted to concentrate the Central Front) (Source: Dorman, Andrew. Defence Under Thatcher. Palgrave Macmillan, Basingstoke 2002) don’t see why the whole regiment would be assigned. Another possibility is that one sqn was indeed assigned to UKMF while the rest of the regiment went to BAOR as the Armd Regt with 19 Inf Bde that I discussed under the QRIH.

    13th/18th Royal Hussars (Queen Mary’s Own)
    Assaye Barracks, Tidworth 11/86-12/91 UKMF and AMF(L) Armd Recce Regt (UK-tracked)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns
    Notes: C Sqn was the Guided Weapons Sqn, equipped with Strikers. The other three sqns were equipped with Scimitars (no GW Troop). D Sqn was assigned to AMF(L) (Scimitars in Recce Tps, an attached GW Tp from C Sqn and if deployed to Norway the Support Tp used BV 206’s instead of Spartans), the rest of the Regiment to UKMF. B Sqn manned the Cyprus UN Ferret Scout Car Sqn 7/89-1/90 at Prince William Camp, Nicosia.

    14th/20th King’s Hussars
    York Barracks, Munster 3/88-12/92 4 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 57 (Challenger)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns
    Notes: Though having four sqns the regiment was treated as a Type 43 regiment as it had one sqn in Berlin. C Sqn Smuts Barracks, Berlin 9/88-?/91 Berlin Bde 18 Chieftain

    15th/19th The King’s Royal Hussars
    Lothian Barracks, Detmold 11/86-1/90 20 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 57 (Chieftain)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns

    16th/5th The Queen’s Royal Lancers
    Harewood Barracks, Herford 11/86-7/91 4 Armd Div Ard. Recce. Rgt. (BAOR-Tracked)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns
    Notes: Though under command of 4 Armd Div they would have formed the Covering Force for 1st BR Corps along with 1st The Queen’s Dragoon Guards and 664 Sqn,, AAC

    17th/21st Lancers
    Swinton Barracks, Munster ?/87-12/90 4 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 57 (Challenger)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns

    The Royal Tank Regiment

    1st Royal Tank Regiment
    Tofrek (West) Barracks, Hildesheim 10/84-9/93 22 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 57 (Chieftain)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns
    Notes: C and D Sqns formed the Maze Prison Guard Force 7/89-9/89 relieving 1st QDG Sqns.

    2nd Royal Tank Regiment
    Wessex Barracks, Fallingsbostel 5/85-3/90 7 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 57 (Challenger)
    - Nero (HQ), Ajax, Badger, Cyclops, Huntsman Sqns
    3rd Royal Tank Regiment
    Peninsula Barracks, Hemer 2/88-6/92 6 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 57 (Challenger)
    - HQ, A, B, C, D Sqns

    4th Royal Tank Regiment
    Imphal Barracks, Osnabruck 11/84-7/93 12 Armd Bde Armd Regt Type 57 (Chieftain)
    - G (HQ), A, B, C, D Sqns
    Notes: Served on UN duty in Cyprus 6/89-12/89 reinforced by 97 (Lawson’s Company) Bty., RA. RHQ at St.David’s Camp, Nicosia, Western Sqn at Box Factory, Eastern Sqn at Camp Elizabeth. HQ and one Sqn at Alexander Barracks, Dhekelia and one Sqn at Ayios Nikolaos with 9 Signal Regt.

    Yeomanry

    The Royal Yeomanry Yeomanry Recce Regt (BAOR)
    - RHQ & HQ (Westminster Dragoons) Sqn- Duke of York’s HQ, Chelsea
    - A (Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry (Prince of Wales’s Own)) Sqn- Swindon & Trowbridge
    - B (Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry) Sqn- Carlton, Nottingham
    - C (Kent & Sharpshooters Yeomanry) Sqn- TA Centre, Mitcham Rd.,Croydon
    - D (North Irish Horse) Sqn- Belfast
    The Queen’s Own Yeomanry Yeomanry Recce Regt (BAOR)
    - RHQ & HQ (Northumberland Hussars) Sqn- Fenham Barracks, Newcastle-on-Tyne
    - A (Ayrshire Yeomanry (Earl of Carrick’s Own)) Sqn- Ayr
    - Y (Queen’s Own Yorkshire Yeomanry) Sqn-Yeomanry Barracks, York w/ Det. @ Halifax Barracks, Beverley
    - C (Cheshire Yeomanry (Earl of Chester’s)) Sqn- Fox Barracks, The Dale, Chester
    - D (Northumberland Hussars) Sqn- Fox Barracks, Cramlington

    Notes: According to an article, Sanders, T J (February 1990, Vol.72, No.711). “Reconnaissance in the 2020’s: An open letter to the author of our article in the May 1989 issue, from Brigadier T J Sanders CBE”. Tank: The Journal of the Royal Tank Regiment, p. 8, “the two 2nd Infantry Division yeomanry regiments are now considered to be ‘mobile anti-armour’ reserves for their respective brigades in the Corps rear area.”

    The Royal Wessex Yeomanry Yeomanry Recce Regt (Home Defence)
    - RHQ and HQ Sqn- Highfield House, Somerford Road, Cirencester
    - A (Royal Gloucestershire Hussars) Sqn- TA Centre, Eastern Avenue, Gloucester
    - B (Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry (Prince of Wales’s Own)) Sqn- Old Sarum House, Old Sarum, Salisbury
    - C (Royal Gloucestershire Hussars) Sqn- Stroud
    - D (Royal Devon Yeomanry) Sqn- TA Centre, Fortescue Lines, Oakleigh Road, Barnstaple
    - E (Home Service Force)(Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry (Prince of Wales’s Own)) Sqn- Old Sarum House, Old Sarum, Salisbury
    -
    Notes: Recce duties for SouthWest, SouthEast, and Eastern Districts ? (Source: RWxY History - British Army Website)

    The Duke of Lancaster’s Own Yeomanry Yeomanry Recce Regt (Home Defence)
    - RHQ and HQ Sqn- Chorley
    - A Sqn- TA Centre, Powell Street, Wigan
    - B Sqn- TA Centre, Manchester Road, Clifton
    - D Sqn- The Keep, Fulwood Barracks,Preston with a Tp at TA Centre, Talbot Road, Blackpool
    - C (Home Service Force) Sqn- SHQ Chorley with Tps at Chorley, Preston, and Wigan

    Notes: Recce duties for Scotland and NorthWest District. (Source: Brereton, John. Chain Mail: The History of the Duke of Lancaster’s Own Yeomanry 1798-1991. Picton Publishing, Chippenham 1992)

    The Queen’s Own Mercian Yeomanry Yeomanry Recce Regt (Home Defence)
    - RHQ and HQ Sqn- Bridgeman House, Cavan Drive, Dawley Bank, Telford
    - A (Queen’s Own Warwickshire and Worcestershire Yeomanry) Sqn- Stourbridge, Coventry and X Tp at Birmingham
    - B (Staffordshire Yeomanry (Queen’s Own Royal Regiment)) Sqn- Tipton, Stafford and Lichfield
    - C (Shropshire Yeomanry) Sqn- Shrewsbury, Oswestry, and Wellington
    - D (Home Service Force) Sqn- Telford
     
  14. Can somebody be so good as to explain the objective of this exercise?

    Are we being asked to help a journo, an author or a student completing a Uni' thesis?
     
  15. Spiced ham.