Questions on the Browning 9mm’s of the 14 Intelligence Company

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
I'll wager it was RMP grandstanding, and had no formal sanction from the SASC (bless'em).
I don't recall any grandstanding when I did my course in 1984. I think the 'conditions' have their genesis in Jeff Cooper's work in the US as there was also much emphasis on the Weaver stance and the 'flash sight' picture at that time.

I don't recall SASC having much to do with us in NI, I think they were teaching the Pistol Cup or whatever.
 
1973 Grand Central Hotel Belfast and I'm one of the Int section photographers; went there in uniform and after ten days they decided they needed me in civvies, (is it any wonder I left)
Three of us shared a BHP which included the BK whose weapon it was; it wasn't until the 1980's that I got to fire one and realised what a bloody awful trigger they had!
Getting back to the OP's question, the guy we dealt with from 14 Int had taken the grips off his BHP...no idea why.
My darkroom was at the back of GCH and the sneaky beaky crowd would walk straight in and knock on the darkroom door for us to clear their weapons; I do recall seeing rather a lot of "baby" Browning's which I've always assumed were personal weapons. I did think the MOD made personal weapons verboten before 1973??
He would have taken the grips off to reduce the profile of the weapon when it was concealed or he found them too wide.

The standard grips felt too big for me so I took a dremel with a sanding ball and shaped them to my hand until they fitted like a glove.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
He would have taken the grips off to reduce the profile of the weapon when it was concealed or he found them too wide.

The standard grips felt too big for me so I took a dremel with a sanding ball and shaped them to my hand until they fitted like a glove.
Depends on hand size and how concealed the carry has to be, bearing in mind that you can be 'overt' whilst in plain clothes. I have reasonably big hands, hence Pachmayr's for me...
 

warmonger82

Old-Salt
@RoyalGreenJacket said:
There was the incident were an Army 'Female Operator' on duty crashed her car whilst trying to evade a suspicious car that appeared to be following her, and then debussed from the wreck and used her Browning 9mm to engage a man who was running towards her from the car that had been following her.

Turns out the man she shot was RUC Special Branch and he was indeed following her - because he thought she was suspicious.

She survived the crash, and the Copper survived the shooting. I'm not sure about her career though.


I was on duty and listening to some of that on the PIN as it happened, plus watching the news on UTV in the Ops room.

Quite a few years later I met her (I am not, nor have I ever been associated with the unit she did that action with). She is an absolutely lovely woman - it appears not to have hurt her career one jot and she was incredibly respected by those who knew her professionally. Oh and everyone was justifiably terrified of her - and not just because of that incident.
Not to be too morbid but how many rounds were plain clothes personnel expected to fire into
any one assailant?

I know full metal jacket 9 x 19 mm has issues with immediately incapacitating suspects. Does anyone know if these soft point rounds were issued in NI?

 
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I know full metal jacket 9 x 19 mm has issues with immediately incapacitating suspects. Does anyone know if these soft point rounds were issued in NI?[/URL]
Bog standard FMJ in 1973; I doubt any of our crowd would have recognised SP or HP if it bit them on the arse!
 

cupidstunt

Clanker
Two books written by women about their time in 14 Int/The Det.
One by a WREN Helicopter mechanic who passed the course and served with the unit.

View attachment 617950

One by a WRAC attached to the Royal Signals before she joined the Det.

View attachment 617951

A Rupert who was from a Jock Regiment wrote the first book about the Det. Most of it is about his training and includes the women on his course. All available on Amazon.

View attachment 617952
There was a thread about 'The Operators' on here years ago, I seem to recall that 'Rennie' never actually served, The book was based on the accounts of others. A good read though.
 

CC_TA

LE
I know full metal jacket 9 x 19 mm has issues with immediately incapacitating suspects. Does anyone know if these soft point rounds were issued in NI?

You can get 3 x 7.62mm into someone at pissing distance not stop or drop them and then wing the twat next to them with a 9mm in the collar bone and drop them on the spot.

Most of the time it's what part of the suspect the round is hitting and what the round (and bits of what the round hit) do afterwards.

Only saw different ammo when the RUC were playing at the range.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Not to be too morbid but how many rounds were plain clothes personnel expected to fire into
any one assailant?

I know full metal jacket 9 x 19 mm has issues with immediately incapacitating suspects. Does anyone know if these soft point rounds were issued in NI?

Legally they are allowed to keep putting rounds into a person until they no longer represent a threat. Same any other squaddie.

I seem to recall that in the incident it was no more than one or two rounds that connected with the RUC officer involved.

And it might not have been 9mm - other weapons were available in their vehicles according to some books written about their antics.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
I think at least some of them had an extended safety and the mag safety button removed. The latter modification took about 2 lb off the trigger pull, and also allowed the mag to drop free when released. IIRC there was also a little fettling here and there - polishing here, spring change there, etc. Not clear how official all this was, things were a little bit different in those days.
I know you're aware of this, but for anyone else with legal access to these things, a small word of advice.
When removing the magazine safety and spring, ensure the magazine safety pin also ends on the wksp bench rather than back in the trigger to make it look neat as they've been known to work loose and stick out of the hole far enough to prevent the trigger being pushed back.
A less than ideal situation even on the range.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
In a slight digression and in re missing fingers. One wonders how many left index fingers fell prey to the muzzle of the MP5K...
Don't know, but I watched a policeman use the A3 model to take the top off his left index finger while showing a cute female cop how cool he was.

I nearly felt empathetic when I'd stopped laughing.
Nearly.


Edit to add type and make sense.
 
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I can't imagine how having the 'mag safety button' removed has any effect on operation of the weapon, nor, really, how any sort of modification to the safety switch would do anything particularly positive. The 9mm Browning, once trained upon it, was as effective as any pistol in that calibre, and in the role it occupied, was pretty good. It could have been slimmer to be used covertly (take off the handgrips and replace with something which worked in all the ways) and that was about it. If you had to use it, it would have had to have been in desperate circumstances, and the effect would be dependent on the operator's ability; few of the weapon's characteristics to the fore, but the operator's training and instincts most certainly so.
 
I must admit I had to Google L102 and cant say I ever came across one. As an under 18 in Derry, I was sent to the armoury to pick up the CO's personal weapon, and was surprised to be handed what looked to me a Walther PP rather than a SLR. I'm pretty sure it was 7.65mm rather than 9mm so I don't think that it could have been a L102. I have only ever heard of the PP's being issued to air crew (I believe this has changed now). Apart from the obvious Fictional call sign , with his PPK. Has anyone ever come across Walther PP/PPK in British service. Or was my 17 year old self not so good a spotter as I thought ?
Fired one on COP course-- RUC had them
 
I can't imagine how having the 'mag safety button' removed has any effect on operation of the weapon, nor, really, how any sort of modification to the safety switch would do anything particularly positive. The 9mm Browning, once trained upon it, was as effective as any pistol in that calibre, and in the role it occupied, was pretty good. It could have been slimmer to be used covertly (take off the handgrips and replace with something which worked in all the ways) and that was about it. If you had to use it, it would have had to have been in desperate circumstances, and the effect would be dependent on the operator's ability; few of the weapon's characteristics to the fore, but the operator's training and instincts most certainly so.
It massively improves the trigger pull, and hence makes life easier for the user in terms of shot placement.

And removes the risk of Emperor Mong's participation when easing springs.
 
It massively improves the trigger pull, and hence makes life easier for the user in terms of shot placement.

And removes the risk of Emperor Mong's participation when easing springs.
Full disclosure: mine still has the mag safety installed, but then it's a commercial FN one from 1974 and the trigger pull is pretty good as it is, to the point where I don't feel the need to do it. Ian's ex-Israeli one I shot at Desert Brutality a week ago had a horrible trigger, and would have benefitted from its removal.
 
Don't know, but I watched a policeman use the A3 model to take the top off his left index finger while showing a cute female cop how cool he was.

I nearly felt empathetic when I'd stopped laughing.
Nearly.


Edit to add type and make sense.

R/LM6 not too dissimilar. Had to consciously think about left hand placement when shouldering at speed. Couple of times I had a finger across the muzzle and had to pull it back, or hand too far back on the guard where the cocking lever beat the snot out of my pinkie.
 
It massively improves the trigger pull, and hence makes life easier for the user in terms of shot placement.

And removes the risk of Emperor Mong's participation when easing springs.
Probably right, although in the circumstances in which urgent use is required, I doubt that a 100lb pull would be noticed much. Mind you, I once bought what I thought was a Browning, but turned out to be a Norinco copy (never trust a fecken Arab arms dealer) and the pull on that would have needed a system of crowbars and levers. It went to a convenient hole in the desert, like Nicky:
 
Probably right, although in the circumstances in which urgent use is required, I doubt that a 100lb pull would be noticed much. Mind you, I once bought what I thought was a Browning, but turned out to be a Norinco copy (never trust a fecken Arab arms dealer) and the pull on that would have needed a system of crowbars and levers. It went to a convenient hole in the desert, like Nicky:
It's the difference between a good hit and a mashed trigger resulting in a miss...
 
It's the difference between a good hit and a mashed trigger resulting in a miss...
I bow to your expertise, but qualify that with my own experience, which never had any problem with the trigger pull, over a couple of decades of use - I certainly never thought about it - and usually a decent hit on that Russian fellow's picture. As an enthusiast, I'd expect you to be far more concerned with the minutiae of weapon handling than me, and a far better shot. I mostly did as I was told by people who were much more betterer at it all than me.

Incidentally, during my service, I never aimed at a human with the intention of killing the brute, but on my first night of subsequent civilian employment, I used an old Webley (I think it was) to fire more rounds with that intent than would have normally been expended on a training day at the Hollow. The first pull on that thing would have challenged Sylvester Stallone at his sweatiest, but the bad guys had pangas and bows'n arrows, so there was plenty of motivation for a firm grip.
 

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