Question for RMP relating to road traffic act.

Discussion in 'AGC, RAPTC and SASC' started by Mag_to_grid, Jul 13, 2009.

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  1. What is the official answer in regards to the Road Traffic Act applying to service drivers whilst on camp?

    For example, if a driver had been involved in a RTA on camp that amounted to Careless and Inconsiderate driving on a normal public road would this apply to a similar incident that had occured inside the wire of a military camp?

    Just looking for the official answer to settle a discussion - I havent had another smash :wink:
  2. I am a little dated in my knowledge of the RTA; however, it applies to public roads, ie roads to which the public have free access. A road inside a military camp that is guarded would not be free access and therefore it is unlikely that the RTA would apply.

    It may be covered if the camp has bye laws, which could enforce elements of the RTA such as careless driving but only under that bye law and not the RTA.

    All the normal military offences would apply and they are pretty much a catch all.
  3. This was mentioned in a thread recently mate,
    I'll find it for you.
  4. This has been bandied back and forth for years. From the book though....

    RTA 88 s.192(1) defines a road in England & Wales as 'any highway and other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes'. Note that references to 'road' generally includes footpaths, bridleways and cycle tracks and many roadways and driveways on private land (including many car parks).

    Do the public have access to MoD property?

    I've never had a straight answer to that question either and I'm not sure if 'Impaired within Barracks' is still an offence or whether they are subjected to the relevant section of the RTA. How do the MoD lawyers define highway? There are one or two barracks' where there are actually public highways travelling through, such as Normandy Barracks in Sennelager. What is the situation in Aldershot where there are 'military roads'? Personally I'd follow the definition until someone proved it different. I'm not able to recall any cases, but has there ever been a death by dangerous (or formerly by recklessness) within any barracks? If a 'get out clause' does exist for any RTA offences where injury or damage is concerned, the 'offender' may still be liable under negligence.

    If you do get a definitive answer on this can you post it?
  5. Germany or Uk?

    Germany: RTA 88 outside camp and SOBA(G) 3208 within of camp.

    SOBA(G) 3208 is a carbon copy of the RTA 88, and therefore a 'catch-all' for any offences that occur inside the wire (S36/69 AA 1955).

    UK, wouldn't have a clue; but since within camp is not a public place/road then I would assume that a Standing Order offence would be used.

    Edit: Cos I is a mong, I needed to correct.
  6. Surely then if RTA 88 applies in camp in Germany it must apply in the UK?

    To go off the thread slightly, im pretty sure for the sake of the Public Order Act that military bases are classed as public places? The public does have access to military bases at the end of the albeit on a limited basis.
  7. You know why im asking :wink:
  8. Not necessarily as a Public Order offence can occur both in a public or a private place.
  9. This has been a grey area for years. We have recently been told by legal that the RTA '88 doesn not apply within the wire.

    You cannot (should not) be prosecuted for an RTA 88 offence within the wire, although there are generally covered by standing orders so you get done anyway, ie drink drive, no seatbelt, speed limits etc.

    Where public roads pass through military land, training areas, towns (Catterick, Aldershot the likes) then the RTA 88 applies equally to Military and civillians.

    Personally that is also how I would interpret it as public have no access.
  10. But the definitions of Highway, road, and public place are all different.
  11. 'Public Place' with regard to the RTA is: 'Any place to which the public have open access is a public place, even if payment must be made to gain entry.'
    There is no such definition with regards to the Public Order Act (although if committed in a private place or dwelling there is a different subsection of offence).

    'Road' is a highway to which the [general] public have access (therefore, a barracks is not a public place and technically not a road either).
  12. A 'public' road, where there is a dispute by defence counsel, is not a matter of fact and if tested court, it is a matter for the jury/members to decide after balancing all the information available to the court.

    I have previously subitted statements at the prosecuting authorities request to DCM's highlighting who and what has access to the particular area concerned. I have even been called to a number of DCM's in person to give evidence based on my knowledge of the local area.

    Using JHQ as an example, I have provided evidence that whilst it is 'loosly' surrounded by a fence and has 3 PVCP's the German populous, GCP, bus service and utilities have routine access.

    On the two occasions I gave evidence based on drink driving cases in JHQ, the roads were determined to be public, as the public were deemed to have access at the material time, whether by payment or otherwise. In my day, which is not that long ago this was seen as the precedent.

    Javeline Barracks and similar enclosed military establishments are in my humble opinion different kettles of fish.

    It has always been the case that more often than not a single barracks, with strict entry criteria for the purposes of drink driving would be dealt with under the relevant standing orders, be they BFG/BFC or NI.

    M2G, I don't know why your asking, but if you PM me buddy I may be able to help. I re-wrote Chapter 23 and rolled out the procedure in NI in 2000.
  13. I'm surprised that this is even a question as Service Police have been dealing with Impaired driving in Germany for over 50 years and the roads and ownerships along with the Garrisons have not changed that much.

    What's the latest from the regular Law and Procedures update training?
  14. Standing Orders do not permit Service Police to breathalyse suspects. Isn't that correct?
  15. You're right, but your powers under the "Ways and Means Act" cover that :)