Queens plans for visit to the Republic of Ireland

[DrunkenIrish]

Cause the IRA of the 1920s was a very different organisation to the PIRA. The IRA divided in 1921/22 which caused a Civil War and the vast majority became the National Army and subsequently the Irish Defence Forces.
Just before they separated they attempted an offensive on the North under Collins, hence my point of pushing for United Ireland and theres been plenty of evidence of support from within the Republic for the PIRA

You'd think it was f#cking yesterday, it was 90 years ago!!!
And in another ninety years the bulk of the people buried there will still be murdering terrorists.

"Extremely dim" why? There were some extremely well educationed people involved
Yes but very few of them ever put themselves in harms way until they turned on each other.

"fairy tales of a united Ireland" what are you on about? The War of Independence was for an independant Ireland (if it was united or not only became an issue in 1922! when Lloyd George said 6 counties in Ulster were not to be given dominaion status)!
So why did it take the Republic so long to renounce its claims to Ulster?

"Magical Irish culture ..... BNP" - what the f#ck! culture like singing, dancing, story telling, sports etc being compared to the BNP!
Wasn't slating the Irish culture as such more this idea that the Irish are some pure set aside race with one all inclusive culture, when they are every bit as mongrel as the British with Vikings, Normans, English and Scots settling nearly the entire island for a thousand years.


You should amend that IRA to PIRA/OIRA because it is a very different organisation to the IRA!

How do you know the North doesn't want it? There was supposed to be a vote and a boundary commission after the 1922 Treaty... guess what.... never happened!
Well haven't been two referendums in which the Northern Irish population has voted to stay in the Union, if the Nationalists have chosen to boycott then thats their problem, also hasn't the UK government stated several times that we'd pull out of Ulster should the majority what to join the South?

Why do to think they arrested people very quickly over the murder of a member of the PSNI? And found arms?
Ah well thats all right then we can forget the Omagh Bombing and those two soldiers and the other PSNI officer who were murdered by the RIRA/CIRA because Gerry's seen fit to hand over a couple of lads and a few rifles well better late than never I suppose.

 

[sunoficarus]

It is the symbolism that counts. Would you be on the outrage bus if the Queen was to go to Afghanistan,and attended a ceremony to dead Taliban​

And Afghanistan is a country with which we have peace treaties and treaties of friendship dating back many decades? It's a country that the UK confers special rights to citizenship and residence to it's citizens in the UK? And the Taliban are recognised by the UK as the legitimate government of a sovereign nation?

No? Thought not.

Do try harder when trying to come up with a comparison​

 

[skid2]

But you've fired up the finest orange outrage bus over the Queen visiting a memorial garden … 'that remembers those who killed British soldiers during rebellious uprisings.'

Of course, you rather conveniently ignore all the innocent Irishmen and women murdered by such fine bodies of men as the Black & Tans, a body of men that any nation could be 'proud' of. But hey, they were only catholics so clearly üntermensch.




United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You're an add on and an after thought dating from 1927, not the real thing.

Well pointed out, thats why Gods chosen people can avail of either an Irish or a British passport. Having been screwed over by one or the other whenever it suits them. It's a good thing.
I like the fact that the outrage bus is orange, the last time I was on one I walked off with half a dozen bottles of freely given beer from crates on the bus.
Generous people. Who, I'm sure wish the Royal visit well and wonder why all the abuse is coming in. I'm sure if Her Maj can visit a freedom fighters memorial in the South there's no reason why she shouldn't visit the same thing in the North. I would be very surprised if B and P doesn't have maps.


As for the Black and Tans, WW1 veterans, demobbed after the first seriously industrialised war. No welfare state, a depression and the offer to get paid to do the only thing they had been doing for the previous four years. The only thing they had been trained to do.....kill people who were a threat to the state.
Nowhere in Kings Regs at the time did I ever read play nice

 

[Inzile]

Once again wheres the outrage? Three posters have simply stated their objections to the Queen visiting a site that commemorates IRA members. I do not believe the IRA of 1916-21 to be traitors, merely extremely dim people by and large, who believed in fairy tales of a united Ireland (which has never existed) and of a magical Irish culture which stands up as well to scrutiny as the shite the BNP dribble. That they won and then managed to economically retard Ireland for almost four generations is testiment to the nonsense they believed in.
The fact the IRA have been involved in the bombings of British cities both in Ulster and the mainland, as well as the brutal murders of hundreds of soldiers, policemen and civilians as recently as 13 years ago (officially, whilst making no real effort to get hold of their CIRA,RIRA brethen) in an effort to force a union between North and South Ireland that the North doesn't want. That makes them a completely different kettle of fish to the Mau Mau as well you know.

I'm referring to British and Proud, and you. The terms in which you address the history of the situation belie your claims to the contrary. The contemporary IRA you are referring to is a different kettle of fish from the IRA which was active in the 1920s - and then split on the question of the settlement with Britain. I served with the descendents of the ones who upheld that settlement and would gladly help you extinguish, with extreme prejudice, the current descendents of those who didn't. I'm sure you have no problem with that.
The fact of life that you have such a hard time with is that the population of the Republic is generally of the opinion that our forefathers were right to rebel against a British government that refused to accept our right to self-determination because it consisted of people who did not have the cultural capacity to understand that we did not see ourselves as British merely because they told us we were. The way that war was fought was a function of the means available and the strength of the opposing force. If that made them terrorists by definition in your book, I really don't give a toss.
You detest how we became independent, indeed that we became independent at all. Tough. But don't be so surprised that Irish people can manage not to see that war the way you do - while at the same time don't want to take over Northern Ireland or plant bombs in the UK.
Her Majesty is clearly of a different opinion to you. She cannot visit this state in an official capacity without recognising its legitimacy - and that legitimacy has its roots in the Anglo Irish War, whether you like it or not.

The Mau Mau reference was originally made as an example of another situation where it would be considered outrageous for HM to make symbolic gestures. All I did was point out that the Mau Mau were a direct result of British imperial policy in Kenya. Meaning if Britain of the past had actually treated its imperial subjects in reality the way they claimed the empire was supposed to work, rather than as a massive chance for white blokes to loot resources, grab land and have houseboys, the empire might still exist. But they didn't so complaining about how people chose to resist is a bit rich.

 

[DrunkenIrish]

I've no problem with an independent Republic and never had and you know full well you've no evidence to back up such a tedious allegation, and I'm fully aware of asymmetric warfare but will never accept the deliberate murder of unarmed civilians which I know British forces were sadly just as guilty of and for a similar reason I would not expect Mary McAleese to attend a memorial to those who committed such crimes. Well what can I say it breaks my heart that you don't give a toss but I'll struggle on regardless.
Well clearly all our ex colonys hate us I mean thats why the Commonwealth is doing so well with former French/Portugese colonies begging to be let in.

 

[blingbling]

It is pure insanity her going anywere in the South at the minute.There is no question there will be at least one attack during her visit.Would you put your life in the hands of the Republic's security forces.Look at Mountbatten and the Ambasador,blown to bits!

Don't worry, we've got a long queue of Royals just waiting to take over the reins if anything were to happen to Her Maj.

 

[petergriffen]

History lives!.....unfortunately.

 

[skid2]

History lives!.....unfortunately.

You know the old line something like those who don't know it always repeat it.
The unfortunate thing about the Irish (North and South)we know our history and are determined to repeat it until somebody gets it right. Hopefully the right somebody

 

[Suddick]

irlsgt shows his "True Colors" as a PIRA apologist.

 

[sunoficarus]

As for the Black and Tans, WW1 veterans, demobbed after the first seriously industrialised war. No welfare state, a depression and the offer to get paid to do the only thing they had been doing for the previous four years. The only thing they had been trained to do.....kill people who were a threat to the state.
Nowhere in Kings Regs at the time did I ever read play nice

The Tans were in any way honourable?

"If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there – the more the merrier.
Should the order ("Hands Up") not be immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching (a patrol) carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man."

Lt. Col. Smyth, June 1920


Great move using the Tans to wage a war of terror on the general population. Made a relatively ambivalent population move to actively supporting the IRA in revulsion at the Tans activities. Even men like my Grandfather, ex regular army, proud of his medals and having fought from the beginning of WWI right to the end, and was so disgusted at the activities of the Tans took up arms against them.

You know the old line something like those who don't know it always repeat it.
The unfortunate thing about the Irish (North and South)we know our history and are determined to repeat it until somebody gets it right. Hopefully the right somebody

The South has long since moved on, it's the idiots in the North stuck in the 1600's mindset.

Had an interesting talk with a USMC Officer some years ago about the insurgency in Iraq. He said he found the ex NI Special Branch blokes brilliant - seems they found it particlulary easy to get inside the insurgents minds. It was just a matter for them of changing protestant and catholic to infidel/muslim, sunni/shiite - same mindsets, same religious hatreds passed down in exactly the same way.

 

[skid2]

I don't remember calling the Tans honourable. Given the fact that this particular nasty little episode happened almost 100 years ago, they operated under entirely different ROE...... and I'm sure your Grandfathers crowd behaved impeccably at all times too.

As for the 1600 mindset. As often at 4pm as I can get it the sun's over the yardarm somewhere.

I'm glad the south has moved on and I'm genuinely sorry to see it seems to be financially, socially and economically backwards. Have you been there recently?

As for a USMC officer praising the actions of NI SB with insurgents in Iraq??????
I love this site, but this time I think I can actually smell the bullshit.

One more time. Personally I wish the Royal duo all the best on their trip. I think they have more to worry about with Phil the Greek than they do with worrying about the actions of a bunch of scabby arsed republicans. (Probably bussed in backwards Northerners)

 

[gallowglass]

God, but this thread is tedious.

 

[irlsgt]

The South has long since moved on, it's the idiots in the North stuck in the 1600's mindset.

It is some idiots (a small minority) on both sides of the border.

irlsgt shows his "True Colors" as a PIRA apologist.

Am I f@ck!!

I'm referring to British and Proud, and you. The terms in which you address the history of the situation belie your claims to the contrary. The contemporary IRA you are referring to is a different kettle of fish from the IRA which was active in the 1920s - and then split on the question of the settlement with Britain. I served with the descendents of the ones who upheld that settlement and would gladly help you extinguish, with extreme prejudice, the current descendents of those who didn't. I'm sure you have no problem with that.
The fact of life that you have such a hard time with is that the population of the Republic is generally of the opinion that our forefathers were right to rebel against a British government that refused to accept our right to self-determination because it consisted of people who did not have the cultural capacity to understand that we did not see ourselves as British merely because they told us we were. The way that war was fought was a function of the means available and the strength of the opposing force. If that made them terrorists by definition in your book, I really don't give a toss.
You detest how we became independent, indeed that we became independent at all. Tough. But don't be so surprised that Irish people can manage not to see that war the way you do - while at the same time don't want to take over Northern Ireland or plant bombs in the UK.
Her Majesty is clearly of a different opinion to you. She cannot visit this state in an official capacity without recognising its legitimacy - and that legitimacy has its roots in the Anglo Irish War, whether you like it or not.

Excellent post!!! It is the comtemorary IRA prior to the Civil War.

I'm sure if Her Maj can visit a freedom fighters memorial in the South there's no reason why she shouldn't visit the same thing in the North.

The difference is the PIRA etc spent most of the time killing people because of their religion, the War of Independence IRA in the vast majority of targeted crown armed forces.

As for the Black and Tans, WW1 veterans, demobbed after the first seriously industrialised war. No welfare state, a depression and the offer to get paid to do the only thing they had been doing for the previous four years. The only thing they had been trained to do.....kill people who were a threat to the state.

Thats ok then?? I'm sure that is what the Taliban are doing do!

Just before they separated they attempted an offensive on the North under Collins, hence my point of pushing for United Ireland and theres been plenty of evidence of support from within the Republic for the PIRA

There was talk of it but no action was ever taken. The only time there was support by the Irish State (not individuals) for people with arms in NI was in 1969 with the Defence Committees. The Irish State has been tough with illegal organisations!

And in another ninety years the bulk of the people buried there will still be murdering terrorists.

Firstly there is no one buried there, secondly what made them terrorists?

Yes but very few of them ever put themselves in harms way until they turned on each other.

Not sure where you are coming from

So why did it take the Republic so long to renounce its claims to Ulster?

Because it became an issue in 1922!

Wasn't slating the Irish culture as such more this idea that the Irish are some pure set aside race with one all inclusive culture, when they are every bit as mongrel as the British with Vikings, Normans, English and Scots settling nearly the entire island for a thousand years.

I won't disagree but there are some unique cultural characteristics as there is in England, Scotland and Wales.

Well haven't been two referendums in which the Northern Irish population has voted to stay in the Union, if the Nationalists have chosen to boycott then thats their problem, also hasn't the UK government stated several times that we'd pull out of Ulster should the majority what to join the South?

When?
If you are talking about the GFA was there a question do you want a united Ireland? There wasn't!
Ever heard of gerrymandering?

How can you choose to pull out of something if you haven't been given the option?

Ah well thats all right then we can forget the Omagh Bombing and those two soldiers and the other PSNI officer who were murdered by the RIRA/CIRA because Gerry's seen fit to hand over a couple of lads and a few rifles well better late than never I suppose.

Would you prefer if they kept the information to themselves.

The membership of the PIRA would know a lot of the murderous scum in the RIRA/CIRA, having previously been in the same organistation. Ever thing that maybe those people who were in the PIRA actually want the violence to stop?

 

[Litotes]

During her visit, will the Queen be going "beyond the Pale"?




Good Lord, is that the time? My taxi should be here... please excuse me...

Lits

 

[gizmo17]

There are 2 war memorials that she will visit:
Heritage Ireland: War Memorial Gardens (all Irish people who have died in war (but mainly focused on WW1))
Heritage Ireland: Garden of Remembrance (for those who gave their lives for Irish freedom)

This is a key part of the Peace process!




Once she steps foot in the Republic she will be offending people for crying out loud!


I taught the royals were all about protocol, hence one of the reasons there is a brigade minus in London!

Cause the IRA of the 1920s was a very different organisation to the PIRA. The IRA divided in 1921/22 which caused a Civil War and the vast majority became the National Army and subsequently the Irish Defence Forces.

You'd think it was f#cking yesterday, it was 90 years ago!!!


Or maybe she shouldn't go to the Cenatoph this year..... it's only protocol!






If she is politically neutral there is nothing to prevent her!



And only British when it suits them (otherwise they are from Ulster)!


I'm sure she has probably visited war memorials to German died!


Extremely well said!




"Extremely dim" why? There were some extremely well educationed people involved
"fairy tales of a united Ireland" what are you on about? The War of Independence was for an independant Ireland (if it was united or not only became an issue in 1922! when Lloyd George said 6 counties in Ulster were not to be given dominaion status)!
"Magical Irish culture ..... BNP" - what the f#ck! culture like singing, dancing, story telling, sports etc being compared to the BNP!



You should amend that IRA to PIRA/OIRA because it is a very different organisation to the IRA!

How do you know the North doesn't want it? There was supposed to be a vote and a boundary commission after the 1922 Treaty... guess what.... never happened!

Why do to think they arrested people very quickly over the murder of a member of the PSNI? And found arms?



Wasn't there a bomb in the Houses of Parliament in 1974? Wasn't Thatcher nearly killed in Brighton?

The threat to Mountbatten was seen as low (even by himself) and was in Bally-go-backwards.

The Gardai are a very professional organisation when it comes to protecting VIPs!





We are proud of our history, we would have liked it to be more peaceful but many felt like they had no option but to take up arms! Others should respect that, as our nation respects them!

I agree with the above to a point. The positive effect this visit MAY have on marginalizing the dissident groupings by having A successfully incident free visit with good photo opportunities all Friends now etc will be worth the odd cringe moment some may have to endure.

Having our head of State Ignoring a country that we share a land border with and keep afloat with the odd hand out here and there would be shortsighted.

 

[Str8Bloke]

My worry that Her Maj's visit will make us liable for digging the ginger twats out of the financial hole they dug for themselves.
They wanted independence, let them enjoy it.
The greatest punishment any Irishman can endure is to live amongst his own kind.

 

[gizmo17]

My worry that Her Maj's visit will make us liable for digging the ginger twats out of the financial hole they dug for themselves.
They wanted independence, let them enjoy it.
The greatest punishment any Irishman can endure is to live amongst his own kind.

Don't know if you noticed but we have bailed them out already a direct loan and our percentage of the euro bail out 15% i think.

 

[Forastero]

Stupid posts deleted, thread is hanging on by a, er, thread. Gizmo, if you're going to pretend to have the virtual stones to have a dig in your sig block, please try and get your grammar and spelling right otherwise no-one will ever take you seriously. And you do want to be taken seriously, right?

Unless anyone can offer anything sensible, I'm going to lock this bad boy. Any sensible objections?

 

[petergriffen]

Stupid posts deleted, thread is hanging on by a, er, thread. Gizmo, if you're going to pretend to have the virtual stones to have a dig in your sig block, please try and get your grammar and spelling right otherwise no-one will ever take you seriously. And you do want to be taken seriously, right?

Unless anyone can offer anything sensible, I'm going to lock this bad boy. Any sensible objections?

No, kill it with fire please....