Quals for Promotion - Why bother?

#1
I've just heard that 6 of the AT's on the recent Cpl - Sgt promotion board are still T2. with 2 of them being given dispensation for parts of the upgrading that they cant complete on medical grounds.

Furthermore i have been told that there are a number of A/Sgt at ATSG that did not get picked up whilst the Cpl's did.

Does anyone know why people are being given dispensation for parts of the upgrading?

Also is this a tempory dispensation and the individuals will be required to attend once they are FE? And if they are never going to be FE why are they not MD'd. Due to their status they will never don the EOD suit and therfore will miss a large part of the trade and will be much maligned because of it.

Apologies to the individuals concerned if you are reading this, this isn't personal just a professional opinion that i am sure will be shared by many.

And finally - This is concerned with AT's, but do other trades have the same situation where personel are promoted into positions that they are not qualified for.

P.S FCUK ME ITS HOT : :roll:
 
#2
Old int my old flower. De-selections have been made by MRO.
 
#3
There are many, many wonderful resons. I however can only think of one.

1. Because it's the Army. simple as.


yes it is hot by the way, very very hot!!
 
#4
Although, yes they will never don the EOD suit, there are jobs they can do in the AT world........

Firstly - Remember we are Ammunition Technicians first and not just Bomb Gods.

Secondly - Be greatful for this hindsight by MRO, as they can only do the jobs and postings you don't want to do.

Finally - Dont feel threatened by these people....... I don't......
 
#5
Thanks Melchers, but i understand the downgraded upgraders are still boarded

This is detrimental to the trade as a whole. There are certain criteria required for qualification to Sgt and even T1 status. If this is allowed to continue then maybe the upgrading should just be an attendance course and all personnel should be granted Sgt rank once attended.

It is unfair to the other AT's who have passed the complete upgrading course. There has been a bar set and it should be achieved. The latest offing on the pipeline is that intermediate IEDD is to be reintroduced into the upgrading (duty rumour - not sure of validity). Will this also be dispensed with.

What crappy jobs that no one else wants then. I dont think there is one job in the trade that NO AT wants.

Nor is this thread about bomb gods its about fairness.

I do not feel threatened by these people we are at totally different stages of career.

Now the Big Scottish One, drunk, naked, fork in hand, p155ed off makes me feel threatened, but thats about it.

These people might be fantastic technicians, it is not the point of the thread to criticise the individual and no one is going to turn down promotion without a very valid reason.
 
#6
I too am not passing judgement, defending or condoning what has happened to the 2 individuals.

I Know one has been promoted to do a specific job, which in turn frees up the work load and pressures of other collegues. Which everyone must agree is a good thing in the times we are in. The other I cannot speak for.

The individuals did not complete BCMD... One I know was for medical reasons so was dispensated.

We all know that the people that be like to move goal posts from time to time to suit their needs. Yes, I agree with you that maybe it's a mistake what has happened, a bench mark may now be set and will now be hard to remove, but realistically it will relieve pressures from other indivduals.

Food for thought...., Maybe its now time to bring in performance related bounties to the trade, for excample qualifing as IEDD (JS & HT) Operators as the jungle drums have beaten for many months now.
 
#7
All those boarded had scored enough points and were well above the quality line as set by the board. The cock up came about because no one bothered to check if they were all suitably qualified. Now the question has to asked, those acting Sgt's who were not boarded, should they still be acting? There seems to be a trend that once qualified as T1 then promotion is seen as an automatic right.

There are more than medical downgrading issues to be looked at for suitability for promotion. I would argue that other personal discrepancies such as bad financial management or perpretation of domestic violence as examples, should also question the suitability of anyone within the trade.

I would rather have a medically downgraded person than someone with questionable personal ethics who could not be trusted.
 
#8
We all know that the performance related pay idea will never happen because it involves spending money.

I that neither completed BCMD and the one also did not complete UXO. Therefore is depot bound all the way.

Are they also excused op tours?

If it may seem a little harsh on the individuals concerned what about all the other guys who fill in the gaps.

I am aware that one is undertaking alot of the tasks in Edinburgh. Fine as long as the Qualified Operators there have to do nothing with GM, Unit inspections, ammunition account, accident investigation, lectures, devices for SF, CBRN van, sweeping up, brew making or dry bumming.

And before you ask spent four years there so i know how busy it can get and spending 14 hour on the road to deal with niff naff and trive gets a little tedious.
 
#9
Dingerr......

I understand where your coming from.

As for the subject of tours it all depends on as to what extent they are downgraded and if the doctor lets them go.... I've been on Op tours with people who are downgraded......

The question would be; do they want to do the tour ?
 
#10
Who does want to do a tour given the option?

They should be warned off for Op Tours just like everyone else and if unable to attend or sent back should be a negative point in their CR.

No liability for tours should + no X-factor.
 
#11
We can only wait and see, if and when it happens. No doubt the jungle drums will bang and let the world know if they bunk off one................
 
#12
So if i read this right,our latest GC holder should be reduced in pay because he is A. medically downgraded and B. because he cant do any tours?

FYI both downgraded personnel were on TELIC 1 and both have done numerous tours prior to that.
 
#13
here is a question for dingerr. If you had an accident today that left you permanently medically downgraded, but was not serious enough to get a med discharge, would you be happy to take a pay cut and have your career progress stopped dead in its tracks?

Or replace accident with a sudden diagnosis of a debilitating disease such as parkinsons, MS, AIDS, cancer etc?
 
#14
All Im saying is give the guys a chance to prove themselves in the rank, doing the job they will be paid for. I don't feel the fact that you are downgraded matters.

Can the trade afford to not let them progress.... I don't think so.... Like I said earlier it will take the burden off others..... And a large sum of money has been shelled out to train these guys. OK they never done BCMD, most people i've spoken to feel it should be taken away from the upgraders and set as a stand alone spec qual....
 
#15
Anonymoose said:
So if i read this right,our latest GC holder should be reduced in pay because he is A. medically downgraded and B. because he cant do any tours?

FYI both downgraded personnel were on TELIC 1 and both have done numerous tours prior to that.
I submit looking at this from the perspectives that the last two posts present do make my comments look ill thought out. However the point of the thread was people being selected for Sgt whilst not fullfilling the promotional criteria and they have'nt been able to do that as a result of being downgraded.

Capt N has already fullfilled all the criteria for his status and then some and as such deserves a massive degree of respect. Knowing the man i have no doubt that he will still offer a great deal to the trade and i think he's done enough tours to justify his x-factor 10 times over.
 
#16
Lordfelcher said:
here is a question for dingerr. If you had an accident today that left you permanently medically downgraded, but was not serious enough to get a med discharge, would you be happy to take a pay cut and have your career progress stopped dead in its tracks?

Or replace accident with a sudden diagnosis of a debilitating disease such as parkinsons, MS, AIDS, cancer etc?
Ok i made the comment based on other information i had received about the people concerned. As previously stated i have no malice against these people and will not repeat that info here. My concern is with the system and the willingness of those further up the chain to bend it to make things fit for some people. I.E UNFAIR.

I see no difference to someone who has attempted a course or phase and failed to those that have not attempted it at all, but in this case the person who has attemted the course and failed is disadvantaged.

And if i dont achieve the standard and/or qualification required i do not expect to get promoted and neither should anyone else.

Yes of course i expect to receive the x-factor all the time especially when i'm eventually in civ div because the way this is going apply for it and you will get it.
 
#17
Only 1 of the T2's was not deselected, which is what I suspected and have now confirmed......

When it was agreed to give the individual dispensation many months ago, it was done so as an exceptional case......

As for those that were selected/deselected, this highlights the overgrading of soldiers..... Maybe report authors should consider not recommending under qualified individuals for promotion..... If this was the case I'm sure this thread would not exsist.

P.S

Dingerr, I apologise if I have made your comments look ill thought out, this I did not set out to do. And I hope this answers the original question raised.
 

Percy_Pigeon

War Hero
Book Reviewer
#18
My view in this matter has been consistent across many similar threads.

If you can deploy and do you job in the field than you should crack on and have a long and successful career.

Baring in mind that you will always be up against it in opposition to quality fitter individuals.

However to be effective you must be able to carry out your job in the field and that means attendance on trade and Cadre courses. I feel that the lowering of standards across the Corps is setting a bad precedent.

There can be no excuse to pass any individual that cannot achieve the minimum standard to pass any course.
 
#19
I believe I have a 50% stake in being the subject of this thread.

I don’t think your information is that accurate, only one downgraded person got promoted, the other got deselected 15 minutes after the board was released with an apology from MCM for the “clerical error”. I scored well above the quality line but the fact I was still T2 was overlooked until the last moment.

I was permanently downgraded after a skiing accident in 2000. The accident was caused by faulty bindings on issue skis. I didn’t do AT selection until 2002 and made the selection board fully aware of my limitations but was still taken into the trade.

I had to wait over 5 years for an operation to repair the damage caused in that accident, if it was done sooner I might have been fully upgraded. In fact there was a trade off between attending upgrading and getting the operation. It was decided to do upgrading first as the recovery from the operation would take so long I might be career fouled! What a waste of a decision that was! It was left so long that the damage was un-repairable and I will remain permanently downgraded.

I have been temp further downgraded to P7 during the recovery and rehab from my operation but will eventually return to P3 but no higher. It is my intention to do BCMD again when able to; I also intend to have a crack at JS and beyond. I attempted one BCMD and attended another as an observer right after my operation. I was told I had to pass the course or remain T2 forever. I only heard of dispensation after the other got his. I too have applied for one and it was granted at SO2 Level. However a certain sausage fingered SO1 has vetoed it and it is now in the hands of the redress system and is currently at GOC Level.

I have done 2 tours and two OTX while downgraded; as and when more come up I fully expect to do them. I am medically fit enough to go to war but not to get promoted, how hypocritical is that?

My point of view is this; if I was no good to the trade why accept me into it? If I am no longer medically fit enough to stay in the trade and progress then give me a medical discharge? Chance would be a fine thing!! What is not acceptable is to start messing around with someone’s career with only 7 years left to do. I can’t transfer to something else as I don’t have enough return of service. Which means by default I have been career fouled and it is now up to the CoC to rectify this.

Both of us down graders have brought a lot of experience from other trades and arms, I have another three trades besides AT and my spec quals are that many they don’t all fit on the front of my CR. There are some junior ATs here that can’t even get saluting the CO right or take several attempts to pass JS No 2 courses, not forgetting the 11+ fails on the class 2 course! If that’s the quality level you want for the future of the trade, then who am I to argue?

If I write any more then I will have to publish this in hard back! :lol:
 
#20
Percy_Pigeon said:
My view in this matter has been consistent across many similar threads.

If you can deploy and do you job in the field than you should crack on and have a long and successful career.

Baring in mind that you will always be up against it in opposition to quality fitter individuals.

However to be effective you must be able to carry out your job in the field and that means attendance on trade and Cadre courses. I feel that the lowering of standards across the Corps is setting a bad precedent.

There can be no excuse to pass any individual that cannot achieve the minimum standard to pass any course.
My, what ignorance you have P.P
 
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