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Putin accuses Poland of colluding with Hitler

In August 1939 Nobody knew or suspected that Poland would fall as quickly as it did, they certainly weren't about to collapse at that point leaving the soviets facing Adolf alone.

You can argue the USSR did what it did in order to avoid war with Germany - but it really is unfeasibly large quantities of bovine excrement of the most puissant kind to argue - as you are- that the USSR did what it did in response to the speed of Polands collapse and perceived French inaction.
By my reading from some time ago Poland was doing OK until stabbed in the back by the USSR.
I could be wrong here.
 
If I recall correctly, once Germany annexed Alsace-Lorraine, the people there were considered to be legally "German" and were subject to conscription into the German army.
They were certainly considered German when quite a few of them were involved in the Oradour-sur-Glane massacre. Not quite up to the extermination standards of East, but a bit more proof that those living in the West were just as capable of atrocities when given the chance.
 
I also had the honour of being placed on ignore...
Oh, no, no. You are one of the most interesting posters on ARRSE from many points of view and I hold in high esteem your opinion your style of thinking.
The only poster on ARRSE whom I put temporary on ignore is our friend @Slime because alas he was a bit notoriously dull.
 
Fight alongside the Poles after all they wouldn't have been quite so easy to defeat if the Soviet Army to their rear was supporting them rather than attacking them -

Of course this drags Russia into a war its not ready for - but this happened anyway and from a selfish stand point at least this way the fighting's in Poland not Russia.

It also ties up the Germans nicely so they cant attack Norway - so allied aid by sea is boosted and of course the French Armies (and British army) - can move into a weakened Germany - Italy stays neutral and the war ends much sooner and without vast tracts of Russia destroyed.

Instead Russia set itself up for a much harder fall later.
The Soviets were several years away from being ready for war.
 
The introduction of the teaching idea was a new one, advanced in the last running Novichok thread. The power engineer story is a relatively good cover because his masters assume that this niche field of endeavour will have few adherents on Arrse., rather like British nuclear engineers who's numbers are steadily dwindling now due to old age as opposed to people with Physics degrees who are allowed to work in the field with appropriate supervision.

I cannot remember if KGB claimed still to be doing a bit of teaching but would point out that for a power engineer to not know the units of slippage is a bit lax. It also seems strange to say the least, that a teacher can suddenly re appear as a power engineer. Assuming a degree and phd in Physics, the degree of retraining to become a power engineer would be intense.

On a more prosaic level, he and his friends are Wormtongues of the worst sort and I find them beneath contempt. He has already gained int. from this site as regards our attitudes to the Poles. That is what he does.

I also had the honour of being placed on ignore by one of the previous users of the KGB account. Think it was the "rats in cellars" one.
I've never met @KGB_resident and don't know him personally, but he has displayed a level of knowledge of industrial automation that suggests he does indeed have experience in the field. I have also worked in the same field, although not in power generation.
 

Slime

LE
Oh, no, no. You are one of the most interesting posters on ARRSE from many points of view and I hold in high esteem your opinion your style of thinking.
The only poster on ARRSE whom I put temporary on ignore is our friend @Slime because alas he was a bit notoriously dull.

Please keep thinking that, and keep me on ignore.
Your constant made up propaganda makes you look a total moron.
We both know you had to put me in ignore because I had the ‘cheek’ to ask you to ‘know your own opinion’ and we both know YOU replied you couldn't KNOW what YOU had previously said unless I provided you with exact links to the words ‘your avatar’ had used!

Your rats in a cellar period, or your theory that Russian crooks ‘make a living‘ by buying drugs at a HIGH price in the UK, then sell them at a LOW price in Russia sum your credibility up perfectly.
 
Oh, no, no. You are one of the most interesting posters on ARRSE from many points of view and I hold in high esteem your opinion your style of thinking.
The only poster on ARRSE whom I put temporary on ignore is our friend @Slime because alas he was a bit notoriously dull.

Nevertheless, one of your colleagues placed me on ignore or at least said that was the case. Think it was the rats in cellars chap. As always, we will see what develops.

@Slime does have a habit of cutting to the quick of things, doesn't he? Would have made a good investigator, I think.
 
First of all thank for detailed comment.
Not really - neither country was prepared for war
Agreed.
The Munich agreement was nothing more than accepting the reality and buying time - both countries had started to increase defence spending by this point they knew war was inevitable.
Again agreed. So it would be logical for Moscow to follow this line - to accept realities, to buy time, try to prepare to the war that was inevitable.
Logistically the UK and France can do nothing to help either - theres no way they can supply any troops they send.
No, I disagree. The reason was not logistical but political one.
France had a common border with Germany. So from logistical point of view it was not a problem to pressure Germany military. But would the British or the French be happy to die to force Czechslovak Germans to remain in Czechoslovakia? No of course. Soviet citizens also would not be happy to die for Polish independence while the country was hostile to the Soviet union the whole interwar period.
The Russian requirement was that it placed troops on Polish soil - Poland wouldn't agree to that
The UK and France cannot force it to
Agreed. That time the Soviet union hadn't common border with Germany and the only way to pressure Germany military was through Poland. If the Polish leaders could foretell the future then they would agree, would not take part in dismembership of Czechoslovakia. But they made a grave mistake. So Polish leaders had to blame themselves.
- Russia was cynically using the appearance of friendship as a covert mode to occupy Poland
I agree that both countries - Poland and the Soviet union didn't trust each other. So Warsaw feared that Soviet troops on Polish soil could be used in quite unwanted way.
The UK didn't - but of course it was only just beginning to arrive in France by 17 Sept.
France did begin albeit in a half hearted manner but the Soviet stab in the back finished Poland off and freed the Germany army to send troops west and so the attack was aborted.
It is a key question:
Was Poland able to resist, to continue the war during months if Soviet troops would not enter Poland 17 September 1939?
My answer is NO. Poland had no resources, military reserves to resist. This or that way the war would be ended within a few days. You may have another point of view.
With French forces not fully mobilised at this point and facing a fully trained and mobilised German army the decision was probably correct in hindsight.
Agreed. I reckon that Moscow also made a wise decision just to win time, to prepare for future inevitable war.
Soviet assistance to Poland ensures this attack goes ahead so 0 points to you - rather than Soviets would be alone if they opposed Hitler - It was the French who stood alone on Sept 17th and so cancelled the invasion.
It is an interesting logic. So France and the UK remained in fact passive, their war with Hitler was strange but the Soviet union had to be active, had to unleash real war with Germany.
Sorry, but I'm unable to agree with it.
In August 1939 Nobody knew or suspected that Poland would fall as quickly as it did, they certainly weren't about to collapse at that point leaving the soviets facing Adolf alone.
Indeed nobody was able to expect that the fall of Poland would be so quick - within just 2 weeks. I fancy that for Stalin it was a shock. At this point he became to realise how strong is his future enemy.
You can argue the USSR did what it did in order to avoid war with Germany
Correct. I reckon that it was the only right decision to avoid, to postpone war with Germany by all means.
 
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Slime

LE
I've never met @KGB_resident and don't know him personally, but he has displayed a level of knowledge of industrial automation that suggests he does indeed have experience in the field. I have also worked in the same field, although not in power generation.

Perhaps ’he’ has also worked in nerve agent production, the Russian passport office, the GRU, Putin’s inner circle and the Russian mafia :)
He has professed to detailed knowledge of those too.
 
I've never met @KGB_resident and don't know him personally, but he has displayed a level of knowledge of industrial automation that suggests he does indeed have experience in the field. I have also worked in the same field, although not in power generation.

Ask him some questions outside the box. Ask him questions that an engineer who deals with power transmission and generation would know at the candidate interview stage. Ask him why he was kicked off the axis history forum.


Whilst you are at it, ask some questions relating to basic science as taught to pre university students in his chosen field of endeavour as a "science teacher."

With respect ( and I respect your input and knowledge greatly), you may form a different opinion.

At this stage, we should agree to disagree).
 
As I'm aware also the Poles are not warmly welcomed in the UK while technically they are not refugees but as citizens of EU country has legal right to settle in the UK and work they.
Maybe I'm not right about the Poles? And what will happen with them after Brexit? Who knows.
Really? Its amazing then how many blokes I know who are in relationships and have kids with these 'unwelcome' Poles. I have no less than four close friends or colleagues who are in various stages of relationships with Poles.
And I; certainly am not unique in knowing this many people.
The couple who live two doors down from myself and my French partner, are an English woman and a Polish bloke, who have two young kids together. And I live in one of the better parts of Kent/London suburbs.
I myself even dated a polish woman for a few months when I split up with my ex wife.
 
The Soviets were several years away from being ready for war.
They were already fighting one against the Japanese. They waited until the conclusion of hostilities there before invading Poland.

And that's the whole point. Stalin wanted to enable Germany to concentrate her forces against the West so that there would be an exhausting stalemate war between the Capitalist Powers just as in 1914-18 and then the Soviet Army would steamroller Europe with the help of Communist fifth columnists several years later. That's why he enabled Hitler to start WW2 and took advantage territorially as well.
 
They were quite happy to break promises elsewhere in the world to achieve their goals, why was Poland any different? Can you imagine Nazi Germany allowing guarantees they'd given to stand in the way of eliminating Poland and Poles?

That was really my point - not that the Soviets were good to Poland, just that - unlike the Nazis - they were content to see Poland and the Polish people (language, cultural, etc.) continuing to exist.
So nothing to do with the fact that the Sovs wanted a friendly Poland to act as a buffer zone against the nuclear armed western armies in the early (pre nuclear weapon armed Sovs) couple of years of the cold war?
 
As I'm aware also the Poles are not warmly welcomed in the UK while technically they are not refugees but as citizens of EU country has legal right to settle in the UK and work they.
Maybe I'm not right about the Poles? And what will happen with them after Brexit? Who knows.
Bloody poles. Came over here*, fought our enemy .....

926EF560-6FDA-43A5-9DE3-A29EA08706DC.jpeg

(* and brought the Enigma machine with them)

What with the Soviet domination of Eastern Europe from the end of WW2 the Polish have been well established in the UK long before they gained any EU status. The only problem that I have with the Polish is their closure of my favourite Salisbury barbers - when the owner decided to go home as Solidarity gained the freedom of Poland. He had a collection pot for Solidarity on the counter for years, then all of a sudden there was a sign on the door, with a longer version of “Closed - gone home”

There is a demonising element of the Polish as job stealers, from the establishment of EU status, but that aligns with every foreign nationality who has come to the UK to work, particularly since the Empire came here to do the dirty jobs that Brits decided was below them. For every prospective EU member state there have been Gypsy’s and dole wannabes queueing up by the thousands. They never seem to arrive though.
You’ve sneaked in a little what-a-boutary and standard Russian state distraction stirring with the highlighting of EU nationals status in the UK under Brexit. Of course the absolute status cannot be established until the terms of the exit are finalised.
This also goes for British ex-patriots living in the EU.

The likely scenario under a deal is retention of status for those already established in the UK, and that future travel across borders would be under normal international terms.
 
Just a little something to add to this thread:


In general, both the German people and the Russian people have never wanted to obliterate the Polish nation. However, certain German and Russian regimes have done so. Both knew that you didn't need to kill everybody, just those who resisted and make the rest into obedient serfs/slaves without their own language, culture and leadership. This is effective obliteration of the nation.

Before 1939, those Poles who had been left behind the Soviet border as established by the Treaty of Riga in 1921 were targeted by an NKVD "National Operation" personally authorised by Stalin.

See: Stalin apologetics - RationalWiki


In 1939 both the Nazi Germans and the Soviet Russians were able to begin to carry out their plans to obliterate the Polish nation.

If the war had then gone the way the Stalin expected it to do so: German attack on the West, stalemate in the trenches for several years, exhaustion of the combatants, then the Red Army steamrollers through aided by Communist fifth columns and partisans across western Europe. Poland and the Polish people would exist in name only as an SSR with Russian as the official language, a re-written history and an enforced Russified culture. Eventually to become oblasts of either the RSFSR or the Ukrainian and Belorussian SSRs after several vainglorious uprisings snuffed out the final sparks of resistance, just like the nominally autonomous Congress Kingdom of Poland was snuffed out by the Tsars in the 19th century, becoming directly ruled Gubernatoria of Russia.

Because the war did not go that way and his erstwhile ally of convenience attacked him first. Stalin was unable to fulfil his intended plan and due to the change of circumstances vis-a-vis the West was forced to pretend to accomodate the Poles. This was necessary in order to keep the "fellow travellers" and the "useful idiots" of the West on side so that the plan might be fulfilled in future.

The Poles who did suffer first the Russian occupation, then the German occupation, then the renewed Russian occupation and ethnic cleansing of annexed territories see no difference in the attitudes of the Nazi German and Soviet Russian regimes. My maternal grandparents remembered the oppression and the attempts at Russification in Tsarist times. The Soviets were horribly worse and there was no difference in their treatment of Poles. Incredibly, in contrast to Russian officers a few German officers were actually remarked as being somewhat civilised and attempting to distance themselves from Nazi excesses.

My maternal grandfather was separated from his wife and children for 18 years when he was deported by cattle truck to a Siberian Camp in Feb 1940. He estimated that a quarter to a third of those on board during the month long journey died - mostly the sick, the old, women and children (his wife and kids had avoided this fate by visiting relatives in a neighbouring village the night when the NKVD descended on their town). They were being worked to death logging the forests on meagre rations in all weathers. He would have been left there to his fate, had it not been for the pressure of the Polish Government in Exile and that of the UK on Stalin to release the surviving Poles after Barbarossa.

Under General Anders (released from the Lubyanka and who had been spared the fate of his brother officers at Katyn due to the Russians believing that they could turn him into a quisling puppet) the surviving Poles including many women and children) were determined to get out of the Soviet hell-hole and made thier way to Persia (with no pro-active assistance from the Soviet regime) later forming the Polish II Corps of the British Eighth Army.
A fantastic post sir.
 
So nothing to do with the fact that the Sovs wanted a friendly Poland to act as a buffer zone against the nuclear armed western armies in the early (pre nuclear weapon armed Sovs) couple of years of the cold war?
Of course, yes. That's one of the important reasons they weren't intent on eliminating Poland. They wanted a friendly buffer state whereas the Germans wanted a bigger Germany and no Poles.
 
Of course, yes. That's one of the important reasons they weren't intent on eliminating Poland. They wanted a friendly buffer state whereas the Germans wanted a bigger Germany and no Poles.
I take your point, and you have raised some very interesting povs on this thread.
However, with the Germans, they wanted to eliminate the poles and the other slavs on racial grounds.
The Russians and Poles on the other hand are (to my understanding) traditional enemies.
An interesting and informative thread though. None the less.
 

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