"Purple EOD" Which way forward?

Discussion in 'RLC' started by slippersapper, May 23, 2006.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Hello all, once more into the lions den, but before I get told to bugger off back to my "own lot" as it directly involves frequent posters on here, any thoughts on how we should move forward?
    Having completed two tours under the banner of JFEOD Gp and seeing that it can work, what work needs to be done to actually get us to train together rather than just wait until we are on Op's. Both disciplines have somthing to offer each other, and as I pursue my pipe dream of being a one shot operator is that the best way forward?
    as far as I can see the options are;

    Stay as the same,
    Form a new Corps,
    RLC to RE,
    RLC & RE to RAF!!

    If we were to from a new trade, does it need to include Ammo Insp and stroage, or should that be a completely seperate entity, that would reduce the amount of time to become a EOD Operator and allow the individual to concentrate on EOD.
    Likewise if the RLC IEDD were to come to the RE would they need to complete the Cbt Engr courses?
    Is a one shot operator they way forward, by one shot I'm talking BDO, RESA, and JS IEDD and if poss HT.
    Is the HT course a bit outdated as the majority of theatres will now be HT? Why not just make the JS include the HT?
    Any thoughts would be great, and try and be positive, I'm really bored of the old and crusty infighting, most current operators I have met are pro jointery so there can't be many of you old bitter and twisted lot left!

    I await your slagging,
  2. chimera

    chimera LE Moderator

    Oh no. Here we go again.
  3. Is this subject the Rocket Doctors' equivalent of a child picking at a scab on it's knee?
  4. Ok - I'll take the bait!

    I think the problem of going purple is not the EOD side of life - but the tasks that the RN/RE/RLC/RAF carry out when they're not directly involved in EOD. The RN are divers, the RE are teeth arms, the RLC are logisticians and the RAF are aircraft armourers. It is these bread and butter tasks which make the whole purple EOD world insurmountable for one person to be expected to be competent in all disciplines. (That nearly makes sense!)

    All bickering aside, we are all highly trained for the tasks that our role demand - and all of us have numnuts amongst our numbers that can't master those. Can you imagine the horlicks that would ensue if they had more disciplines to master? I shudder at the thought!
  5. General Melchett

    General Melchett LE Moderator

    Form a new Corps.

    Something with Ordnance and Corps in the title would do it. Throw in Royal for good luck too.
  6. Dear slippersapper,

    On the contrary, there are plenty of bitter and twisted left, many with operational reasons for being so! However, I will remain as objective and factual as I can!!

    There are sound historical (and occasionally still relevant) reasons why each Service/Cap Badge does what it does - remember also that our UK role is often subtly different from our deployed role. The best 'way forward' is for us to; accept the we are each the experts in what we do, and that from time to time we will need to heed the advice of our EOD colleagues, and, stop trying to poach each other's jobs. You will NEVER hear an AT/O claiming to be a BDO, but on Ops I have heard a number of BDOs claiming to be ATO!! This suggests that they are either ashamed of being a BDO or jealous of ATO! :twisted:

    My belief is that whilst all those conducting/supporting EOD might not need to train together, certain elements would benefit (eg RLC IEDD Operators training for High Threat course would benefit from training beforehand with RESA/REST); although it does of course depend upon whether you are training for your UK or deployed role.

    Regarding your query - Why not just make the JS include the HT? Hmm...have you done JS IEDD Cse and experienced JS IEDD licensing? If not, get along and see what experienced JS operators have to try and do (in the UK). Then add in the cheekiness of a HT task and I think you will agree that going from nothing to HT qualified (and suitable for deployment) is not achieveable for the vast majority, and undesireable for all. At HT level, training alone cannot alone make up for experience backed up by sound technical knowledge.


    Bitter and Twisted!

    PS. Search (aka Hide and Seek) is not EOD!
  7. mmm nobody got on their high horse as yet!!

    H/A although I've not heard of any poaching of IEDD tasks by a BDO I'll take your point, the main problem for BDO's on Ops is the lack of understanding of those that we work for, the amount of times I have begun to explain "No the ATO is not going to deal with that blind 107mm, the BDO is, as the ATO is off to snare the firing point" just to be looked at completely blankly and then ignored is comical. Of course the history set in NI is the reason and I accept that, however strange OPTAG briefings from the resident ATO about "the only man to call is ATO" does not help.
    The RESA's that you will be working with on OP's will soon be all from 33 as we are ramping up our search assests to meet demand and as NI becomes a shadow of it's former self (fingers crossed) 25 will scale down their HRS assests. Although I agree they are not EOD, they are a integral part of any IEDD Op (when available} that is currently conducted out of the UK mainland. How much experience gained in the UK in dets is good prep for the other theatres where HT is required? I only ask as I always thought "train for the very worst and anything less is a bonus" was a sound attitude to EOD training.
    Hopefully I'll be on the JS course at sometime in the near future, even though I'll never need to do licensing as we are not allowed to IEDD anyway!! :D
  8. Bugger off back to your own lot ! This has gotten boring.

    I have read your two posts and I am afraid you are just showing your plain ignorance on the whole subject. You really think that a BDO has something to offer us :? Bin the JS course and make it HT :? Go home loser :!:

    You and your Wedge Buddies might think that the Jt concept works but the majority on our side of the fence do not agree after experiencing it first hand. We have even had an OC of the said Gp admitting to us that he "commands an EOD Sqn that cannot do EOD".

    Do not believe that history stops at NI, look way further back. Everything we do is done because of lessons learnt through history.

    BTW - Haven't you guys figured out yet that if we get forced to become Wedge the HT capability is walking out the door, setting up its own company and charging you a fortune for it.

    As for our guys answering with sensible answers. Why would we want to give you ideas?
  9. Blimey a sensible discussion between the RE darts Team and Felix...oh hang on
    Slipper Sapper what did your mum tell you about talking to strange men? Just ignore the nasty man he can't take part in a debate with the RE :roll: probably got bullied at Chepstow by the nasty Sappers :p

  10. You missed an option out there Slipper....

    RE EOD to RLC

    Funny that you forgot that one........... Now go home :)

  11. For clarity - Re 'poaching tasks' - I did not mean stealing individual tasks, I meant taking on 'roles' (eg the continual attempts by RE to take on IEDD at the expense of the knowledge base and experience that already exists within the RLC, and patently does not exist in the RE).

    "...the main problem for BDO's on Ops is the lack of understanding of those that we work for..." Agreed - it gets right under my skin when anyone thinks that ATO is a RE.

    Regarding the 'experience issue' - ask the very few JS IEDD qualified RE who have had a go in the 'dets' and see if they felt they gained increased competence through experience. Multiply their experience by a factor of about 10 and you get somewhere near the start state for most ATs having their first attempt at HT tasks. In short, the answer to your question is that ALL experience gained conducting UK IEDD tasks is good prep for HT theatres. You need a sound foundation of relevant technical knowledge and experience upon which to build - you'll note my attempt to use an Engineering analogy to help you understand! :D
  12. What about RLC HT operators to the new CTC (Counter Terrorist Command) (The new SO13), as they set up all the new regional EXPO offices, RE redwing dartsteam do everything overseas.
    Mind you, this will mean that they will have to recruit a Wedge in 20 years or so as we run out of highly-strung pooves with small pink wire cutters.

    "By this stage of the RSP, I would be on fire"
  13. SlipperSapper

    If you really want to be that "One Shot" operator then transfer to become an ATO. There has already been an Officer and a handful of OR's transfer so you won't be alone.

    Come on don't be scared!!!!!!!
  14. General Melchett

    General Melchett LE Moderator

    This subject always causes people to get emotional. :)

    At this moment in time there are two RE BDO JNCO types applying to transfer to AT. Totally thredders with the RE and all that surrounds it's EOD mystique.
  15. Welcome back to the lion's den SS! Aren't we all being pleasant and mature? Mostly :wink:

    As with so many things, knowledge is power and the battles for resourcing within Defence are fought with information - or all too frequently misinformation. So:

    Yesterday I did a running total of all EOD tasks in NI (which, Im sure you'll agree, is HT and not UK mainland) that involved RESA/REST. There were 495 EOD tasks in 2005 and RESA/REST were deployed on 8 of them. 7 were Planned Ops and 1 was a direct task. We are on 113 tasks this year up to the end of April and so far RESA/REST has been co-tasked with ATO once. Of course, the lads at 25 are doing other stuff as well, but this shows that the above statement is one of those creeping inaccuracies that get bandied about. I'm not saying SS has done this deliberately or with beastliness aforethought, but some people do.

    As to the original question, my solutions, in order of preference, would be:

    1. An Explosive Ordnance Technical Corps - call it what you will, I don't care - that encompasses the RE EOD/EOC and search roles along with the RLC EOD and ammunition and technical roles. Probably easier to leave the RN and RAF with their own setups, though.

    2. The RLC takes on the whole army EOD role. This would be a reversion to the pre 1940 system and it would take much less training to make an AT or ATO into the mythical "universal EOD operator" than the other way round. (If our leaders had any balls they would deploy this argument every time the sappers raise their "one shot" shenanigans.) Those BDOs that want to come across could, without being career fouled. We would benefit from their skills and experience, but they would also need training as ATs or ATOs.

    3. Leave things as they are and be content with where the remits have fallen, with a permanent end to empire building.