"Purple EOD" Which way forward?

#1
Hello all, once more into the lions den, but before I get told to bugger off back to my "own lot" as it directly involves frequent posters on here, any thoughts on how we should move forward?
Having completed two tours under the banner of JFEOD Gp and seeing that it can work, what work needs to be done to actually get us to train together rather than just wait until we are on Op's. Both disciplines have somthing to offer each other, and as I pursue my pipe dream of being a one shot operator is that the best way forward?
as far as I can see the options are;

Stay as the same,
Form a new Corps,
RLC to RE,
RLC & RE to RAF!!

If we were to from a new trade, does it need to include Ammo Insp and stroage, or should that be a completely seperate entity, that would reduce the amount of time to become a EOD Operator and allow the individual to concentrate on EOD.
Likewise if the RLC IEDD were to come to the RE would they need to complete the Cbt Engr courses?
Is a one shot operator they way forward, by one shot I'm talking BDO, RESA, and JS IEDD and if poss HT.
Is the HT course a bit outdated as the majority of theatres will now be HT? Why not just make the JS include the HT?
Any thoughts would be great, and try and be positive, I'm really bored of the old and crusty infighting, most current operators I have met are pro jointery so there can't be many of you old bitter and twisted lot left!

I await your slagging,
 

chimera

LE
Moderator
#2
slippersapper said:
I await your slagging,
Oh no. Here we go again.
 
#3
Is this subject the Rocket Doctors' equivalent of a child picking at a scab on it's knee?
 
#4
Ok - I'll take the bait!

I think the problem of going purple is not the EOD side of life - but the tasks that the RN/RE/RLC/RAF carry out when they're not directly involved in EOD. The RN are divers, the RE are teeth arms, the RLC are logisticians and the RAF are aircraft armourers. It is these bread and butter tasks which make the whole purple EOD world insurmountable for one person to be expected to be competent in all disciplines. (That nearly makes sense!)

All bickering aside, we are all highly trained for the tasks that our role demand - and all of us have numnuts amongst our numbers that can't master those. Can you imagine the horlicks that would ensue if they had more disciplines to master? I shudder at the thought!
 
#5
Form a new Corps.

Something with Ordnance and Corps in the title would do it. Throw in Royal for good luck too.
 
#6
Dear slippersapper,

On the contrary, there are plenty of bitter and twisted left, many with operational reasons for being so! However, I will remain as objective and factual as I can!!

There are sound historical (and occasionally still relevant) reasons why each Service/Cap Badge does what it does - remember also that our UK role is often subtly different from our deployed role. The best 'way forward' is for us to; accept the we are each the experts in what we do, and that from time to time we will need to heed the advice of our EOD colleagues, and, stop trying to poach each other's jobs. You will NEVER hear an AT/O claiming to be a BDO, but on Ops I have heard a number of BDOs claiming to be ATO!! This suggests that they are either ashamed of being a BDO or jealous of ATO! :twisted:

My belief is that whilst all those conducting/supporting EOD might not need to train together, certain elements would benefit (eg RLC IEDD Operators training for High Threat course would benefit from training beforehand with RESA/REST); although it does of course depend upon whether you are training for your UK or deployed role.

Regarding your query - Why not just make the JS include the HT? Hmm...have you done JS IEDD Cse and experienced JS IEDD licensing? If not, get along and see what experienced JS operators have to try and do (in the UK). Then add in the cheekiness of a HT task and I think you will agree that going from nothing to HT qualified (and suitable for deployment) is not achieveable for the vast majority, and undesireable for all. At HT level, training alone cannot alone make up for experience backed up by sound technical knowledge.

Regards,

Bitter and Twisted!

PS. Search (aka Hide and Seek) is not EOD!
 
#7
mmm nobody got on their high horse as yet!!

H/A although I've not heard of any poaching of IEDD tasks by a BDO I'll take your point, the main problem for BDO's on Ops is the lack of understanding of those that we work for, the amount of times I have begun to explain "No the ATO is not going to deal with that blind 107mm, the BDO is, as the ATO is off to snare the firing point" just to be looked at completely blankly and then ignored is comical. Of course the history set in NI is the reason and I accept that, however strange OPTAG briefings from the resident ATO about "the only man to call is ATO" does not help.
The RESA's that you will be working with on OP's will soon be all from 33 as we are ramping up our search assests to meet demand and as NI becomes a shadow of it's former self (fingers crossed) 25 will scale down their HRS assests. Although I agree they are not EOD, they are a integral part of any IEDD Op (when available} that is currently conducted out of the UK mainland. How much experience gained in the UK in dets is good prep for the other theatres where HT is required? I only ask as I always thought "train for the very worst and anything less is a bonus" was a sound attitude to EOD training.
Hopefully I'll be on the JS course at sometime in the near future, even though I'll never need to do licensing as we are not allowed to IEDD anyway!! :D
 
#8
slippersapper said:
Hello all, once more into the lions den, but before I get told to bugger off back to my "own lot"

I await your slagging,
Bugger off back to your own lot ! This has gotten boring.

I have read your two posts and I am afraid you are just showing your plain ignorance on the whole subject. You really think that a BDO has something to offer us :? Bin the JS course and make it HT :? Go home loser :!:

You and your Wedge Buddies might think that the Jt concept works but the majority on our side of the fence do not agree after experiencing it first hand. We have even had an OC of the said Gp admitting to us that he "commands an EOD Sqn that cannot do EOD".

Do not believe that history stops at NI, look way further back. Everything we do is done because of lessons learnt through history.

BTW - Haven't you guys figured out yet that if we get forced to become Wedge the HT capability is walking out the door, setting up its own company and charging you a fortune for it.

As for our guys answering with sensible answers. Why would we want to give you ideas?
 
#9
slippersapper said:
mmm nobody got on their high horse as yet!! :D
Blimey a sensible discussion between the RE darts Team and Felix...oh hang on
Dibble said:
Bugger off back to your own lot ! This has gotten boring.

I have read your two posts and I am afraid you are just showing your plain ignorance on the whole subject. You really think that a BDO has something to offer us :? Bin the JS course and make it HT :? Go home loser :!:

You and your Wedge Buddies might think that the Jt concept works but the majority on our side of the fence do not agree after experiencing it first hand. We have even had an OC of the said Gp admitting to us that he "commands an EOD Sqn that cannot do EOD".

Do not believe that history stops at NI, look way further back. Everything we do is done because of lessons learnt through history.

BTW - Haven't you guys figured out yet that if we get forced to become Wedge the HT capability is walking out the door, setting up its own company and charging you a fortune for it.

As for our guys answering with sensible answers. Why would we want to give you ideas?
Slipper Sapper what did your mum tell you about talking to strange men? Just ignore the nasty man he can't take part in a debate with the RE :roll: probably got bullied at Chepstow by the nasty Sappers :p
 
#10
slippersapper said:
Stay as the same,
Form a new Corps,
RLC to RE,
RLC & RE to RAF!!

You missed an option out there Slipper....

RE EOD to RLC


Funny that you forgot that one........... Now go home :)


.
 
#11
slippersapper said:
mmm nobody got on their high horse as yet!!

H/A although I've not heard of any poaching of IEDD tasks by a BDO I'll take your point, the main problem for BDO's on Ops is the lack of understanding of those that we work for....

How much experience gained in the UK in dets is good prep for the other theatres where HT is required? I only ask as I always thought "train for the very worst and anything less is a bonus" was a sound attitude to EOD training.
For clarity - Re 'poaching tasks' - I did not mean stealing individual tasks, I meant taking on 'roles' (eg the continual attempts by RE to take on IEDD at the expense of the knowledge base and experience that already exists within the RLC, and patently does not exist in the RE).

"...the main problem for BDO's on Ops is the lack of understanding of those that we work for..." Agreed - it gets right under my skin when anyone thinks that ATO is a RE.

Regarding the 'experience issue' - ask the very few JS IEDD qualified RE who have had a go in the 'dets' and see if they felt they gained increased competence through experience. Multiply their experience by a factor of about 10 and you get somewhere near the start state for most ATs having their first attempt at HT tasks. In short, the answer to your question is that ALL experience gained conducting UK IEDD tasks is good prep for HT theatres. You need a sound foundation of relevant technical knowledge and experience upon which to build - you'll note my attempt to use an Engineering analogy to help you understand! :D
 
#12
What about RLC HT operators to the new CTC (Counter Terrorist Command) (The new SO13), as they set up all the new regional EXPO offices, RE redwing dartsteam do everything overseas.
Mind you, this will mean that they will have to recruit a Wedge in 20 years or so as we run out of highly-strung pooves with small pink wire cutters.



"By this stage of the RSP, I would be on fire"
 
#13
SlipperSapper

If you really want to be that "One Shot" operator then transfer to become an ATO. There has already been an Officer and a handful of OR's transfer so you won't be alone.

Come on don't be scared!!!!!!!
 
#14
This subject always causes people to get emotional. :)

At this moment in time there are two RE BDO JNCO types applying to transfer to AT. Totally thredders with the RE and all that surrounds it's EOD mystique.
 
#15
Welcome back to the lion's den SS! Aren't we all being pleasant and mature? Mostly :wink:

As with so many things, knowledge is power and the battles for resourcing within Defence are fought with information - or all too frequently misinformation. So:

slippersapper said:
The RESA's that you will be working with on OP's will soon be all from 33 as we are ramping up our search assests to meet demand and as NI becomes a shadow of it's former self (fingers crossed) 25 will scale down their HRS assests. Although I agree they are not EOD, they are a integral part of any IEDD Op (when available} that is currently conducted out of the UK mainland.
Yesterday I did a running total of all EOD tasks in NI (which, Im sure you'll agree, is HT and not UK mainland) that involved RESA/REST. There were 495 EOD tasks in 2005 and RESA/REST were deployed on 8 of them. 7 were Planned Ops and 1 was a direct task. We are on 113 tasks this year up to the end of April and so far RESA/REST has been co-tasked with ATO once. Of course, the lads at 25 are doing other stuff as well, but this shows that the above statement is one of those creeping inaccuracies that get bandied about. I'm not saying SS has done this deliberately or with beastliness aforethought, but some people do.

As to the original question, my solutions, in order of preference, would be:

1. An Explosive Ordnance Technical Corps - call it what you will, I don't care - that encompasses the RE EOD/EOC and search roles along with the RLC EOD and ammunition and technical roles. Probably easier to leave the RN and RAF with their own setups, though.

2. The RLC takes on the whole army EOD role. This would be a reversion to the pre 1940 system and it would take much less training to make an AT or ATO into the mythical "universal EOD operator" than the other way round. (If our leaders had any balls they would deploy this argument every time the sappers raise their "one shot" shenanigans.) Those BDOs that want to come across could, without being career fouled. We would benefit from their skills and experience, but they would also need training as ATs or ATOs.

3. Leave things as they are and be content with where the remits have fallen, with a permanent end to empire building.
 
#16
Why have an AT trade at all?

There's less and less maintenance to do on ammo now everything's hermetically sealed.
Accidents can be dealt with by the TAIT or HSE.
Licencing is the remit of the IE, which is civvy, so let civvies do it.
Logistical disposal is done largely by Qinetiq.
Management of ammo can be done by the Sup Spec/Sup Con (they do everything else in the army).
IEDD is a peace time role, so let it be handled by the police (where it should have been directed 35 years ago!).
CMD can then be easily consumed by the RE, and they can take over EOD in entirety on Ops (less below the high water mark and airfields).

There we are, apart from whingeing and slagging off the RE - everythings been accounted for! Job- jobbed!
 
R

really?_fascinating

Guest
#17
Field Squadrons (EOD) are just that - Cbt Engrs trained to do EOD.

EOD Squadrons RLC are that too - Squadrons who exist to do EOD.

Having served in 11 EOD, 321 EOD and DEODS and been a member of DS panel it is apparent that until RE hierarchy regard EOD as serious business, RE operators will only ever get 'just enough' training. The RLC are v fortunate that EOD is regarded as seriuos business, and while not ideal, EOD operators are well looked after. At least, in comparison to RE BDO personnel.

ATs and ATOs have a career structure, a hierarchy of courses and an understanding that a one shot approach to training for EOD excellence does not work. The simple fact is the very best operators, with proven operational records through JS, HT and beyond can still be caught out. Turning someone from a Cbt Engr to a BDO prepares them adequately for their tasks. Training an AT to JS IEDD is adequate as well. You need experience, peer reveiw and a strict testing regime to prepare people for HT. Once HT done and some operational experience gained, there are still more courses and training to do.

You COULD take a JS ATO and make him an 8001 operator quite quickly with a high degree of confidence. The reverse is simplpy not true and if you want to produce an operator to do all LAND tasks (less HT), start with an AT/ ATO and add about four weeks. Or take a BDO and add about 80 weeks over a number of years.

The inference therefore, if you want to do it right is that the BDO trade should be part of AT training. The reason ATs do not do BDO stuff is the need for an understanding of how to use plant and shafting/ shoring to reach deep buried bombs. That is a cbt engr skillset and needs Sapper skills. Once you have dug to the bomb, you might as well make it safe.

The harsh reality is that there is not a huge amount of common ground - IEDD is the most demanding bit of EOD and needs the most investment of training time and experience.

In closing, the logical thing would be to leave it alone - an EOD Corps would be too small and would be eaten up by the bigger boys v quickly indeed. A thousand personnel all ranks? Senior officer a Colonel? No clout, no chance to influence things and would be lost in the noise while RLC bought themselves trucks and RE bought new digging tanks. The RLC hierarchy is proud of the AT/ ATO achievements and is careful to ensure it is protected whereas i suspect the RE are no more excited about BDOs than they are divers, TROJAN and TERRIER and ABLE bridging. If they had to give something up, BDOs would be first to go I suspect..
 
#18
General Melchett said:
This subject always causes people to get emotional. :)
Oh this is great!! I mean it ... fantastic!
God, how I've missed this bickering and the way this subject can raise hackles... even mine, and I left 10 years ago!

It's only a cap badge for christssake... and of course God's way of telling us that he put all his best creations in one Corps (with cannon in the center of its badge in case you're feeling clever)!



Now remember to visit my store ya beeeeeeeeeps (not beep beeps of course although you're welcome) 'coz Felix is there. Support an ageing ex-ato who may one day turn purple, but could never concievably think purple, be purple or be anything other than an Ordnance man.

Regards,- C
 
#19
Leave it as it is then? That seems to be the least offensive way forward. I think the RE are taking to EOD a bit more these days, an extra 6 BDO's per Sqn, oh and another Sqn on top of that, the 2nd highest priority in the Corps is now 33 plus the final realisation that people want BDO's in civvie street which therefore requires retention incentives. I raised this post after reading the current problems at 11 Regt, the drop in quailty of AT's and after speaking to operators recently on Telic, they all point to a trade in a bit of a crisis, if that is the wrong immpression then I do apologise.
Luckily the RE EOD are perfectly healthy and enjoying themselves! (yeah right)
 

diplomat

MIA
Book Reviewer
#20
Who wants BDOs in civvy street, apart from the mine action NGOs, who also employ combat engineers?

Most of the other jobs out here are now specifically requesting ATOs, as civvy street is now beginning to understand the difference. (I have been out over 8 years now and know the market pretty well).

Look at the www.undp.ba jobs page for the most recent example!
 
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