Public sector debt is equivalent to £85,610 per household

#1
'kin hell, its a lot worse than I feared if this report is anywhere near accurate. Even if it isn't the current government admit it is upwards of 800 billion, which is certainly an underestimate anyway, PFI not being in that figure.

Payback is going to be a bitch. :x

The CBI said that the Government needed to cut its planned spending by £120 billion over the next six years, amid forecasts that official figures due tomorrow will show that total net borrowing has surged by another £10 billion in the past month.

The true level of Government debt is equivalent to 157 per cent of national output and nearly three times as large as the £805 billion figure reported by the Office for National Statistics, according to a new book published by a centre-right think tank.

Brooks Newmark, the Conservative MP for Braintree, Essex, says in The Hidden Bombshell, published today by the Centre for Policy Studies, that government debt is actually £2,200 billion. In the book, Mr Newmark argues that the UK’s public sector net debt is equivalent to £85,610 per household and in the last year has risen by £346 billion — or by £11,000 a second.
Full story in The Times.
 
#2
That's what you get with 12 years of 'Fiscal Prudence'
 
#5
And I was stupid enough to think I was debt free
 
#6
OK, clearly I'm going to have to go over this again.

Public sector pensions and PFI are not debt, they are money that has to be spent in the future. Example:

If you needed to spend £10,000 on food to take you to the end of your life, you would not have any realistic choice in spending it - you spend it or you croke. However, you would not therefore be £10,000 in debt and/or broke - it would simply be that £10,000 of future income would have been allocated to the take of providing you with food. In the same way, to state that X amount of pensions are 'unfunded' is to say that we will need to spend money in the future that we don't yet have: it isn't to say we are X amount in debt, it means that X amount of money to be collected in the future has been allocated to pay pensions.

The CBI has a vested interest in talking up Britain's debt problem because if governments borrow money, it causes the cost of borrowing to the corporate sector the CBI represents to go up. As a result, if they can scare government into a drastic cutback in borrowing, their members costs go down. Cutting back on public sector employment also works for them, as it causes an increased poor of labour to develop that their members can hire at a reduced rate of pay.
 
#7
Oi Ord_Sgt stop trying to distract us from the real issue! CO2 and climate change.... The Dear Leader can't be distracted.
The UK faces a "catastrophe" of floods, droughts and killer heatwaves if world leaders fail to agree a deal on climate change, the prime minister has warned. - BBC News
He has his eye on the real threat! Never fear his other eye (the one that doesn't work) is watching over the small matter of the public finances! :wink:

Now go home turn the lights off and stand in a bucket of cold water.
 
#8
parapauk said:
OK, clearly I'm going to have to go over this again.

Public sector pensions and PFI are not debt, [semantics, they are both liabilities] they are money that has to be spent in the future. Example:

If you needed to spend £10,000 on food to take you to the end of your life, you would not have any realistic choice in spending it - you spend it or you croke. However, you would not therefore be £10,000 in debt and/or broke - it would simply be that £10,000 of future income would have been allocated [the whole point is that the govt is not allocating anything towards it now so they are going to have to either fund it via future taxes, cuts or borrowing] to the take of providing you with food. In the same way, to state that X amount of pensions are 'unfunded' is to say that we will need to spend money in the future that we don't yet have: it isn't to say we are X amount in debt, it means that X amount of money to be collected in the future has been allocated to pay pensions.

The CBI has a vested interest [true but its interests are not anathema to general interest of the country - successful pricate sector sector generating wealth which govt uses to provide public services. Only the most extreme Trotskyite would have a problem, with that surely?]in talking up Britain's debt problem because if governments borrow money, it causes the cost of borrowing to the corporate sector the CBI represents to go up. As a result, if they can scare government into a drastic cutback in borrowing, their members costs go down. Cutting back on public sector employment also works for them, as it causes an increased poor of labour to develop that their members can hire at a reduced rate of pay.[Technically correct that the govt spending crowds out private sector in both lending and resourcing. Not a good thing I would suggest as I mentioned, only the private sector generates wealth, strangle it, and the govt strangles the goose that lays its golden eggs.]
 
#9
Well according to official figures and forecasts we are running up our debt at about 7k per second. http://www.debtbombshell.com/

Pensions are not debt, unless of course you don't have the tax revenues to pay them along with everything else, then you need to borrow it, hey presto, more debt. Fiddling while Rome burns springs to mind.

Whatever way you look at it, thats a lot of money that needs to be repayed, over and above the cost of running the country. It's unsustainable so cuts, and drastic ones at that are inevitable.
 
#10
parapauk said:
OK, clearly I'm going to have to go over this again.

Public sector pensions and PFI are not debt, they are money that has to be spent in the future. Example:
And what is debt if it is not money which has to be paid back in the future? PFI is the governmental equivalent of what Enron did - i.e. hiding liabilities off your balance sheet.

Sorry, any credibility which you had has now gone.

msr
 
#11
msr said:
parapauk said:
OK, clearly I'm going to have to go over this again.

Public sector pensions and PFI are not debt, they are money that has to be spent in the future. Example:
And what is debt if it is not money which has to be paid back in the future? PFI is the governmental equivalent of what Enron did - i.e. hiding liabilities off your balance sheet.

Sorry, any credibility which you had has now gone.

msr
Public sector pensions, with terms and conditions that could not be supported in the private sector, alter this to a standard retirement age of 65, should save a few quid.


PFI a method of off-setting debt in the most expensive way possible.

See below a pictorail example how PFI works.

 
#12
msr said:
parapauk said:
OK, clearly I'm going to have to go over this again.

Public sector pensions and PFI are not debt, they are money that has to be spent in the future. Example:
And what is debt if it is not money which has to be paid back in the future? PFI is the governmental equivalent of what Enron did - i.e. hiding liabilities off your balance sheet.

Sorry, any credibility which you had has now gone.

msr
Nothing has to be paid back in the case of pensions as nothing has been borrowed. You could make a case for PFI as debt, but that then again the cost of PFI is paid for by money generated by annual taxation. You can't be in debt for money you haven't spent - see my £10,000 food bill example.
 
#13
If the figures are to be believed, since my post and MSR's, 17,220,000 has been added to the national debt. Who cares what it's being spent on, PFI, pensions or bloody digestive biscuits, its still got to be repayed at some point, everything else is bollox.
 
#14
parapauk said:
msr said:
parapauk said:
OK, clearly I'm going to have to go over this again.

Public sector pensions and PFI are not debt, they are money that has to be spent in the future. Example:
And what is debt if it is not money which has to be paid back in the future? PFI is the governmental equivalent of what Enron did - i.e. hiding liabilities off your balance sheet.

Sorry, any credibility which you had has now gone.

msr
Nothing has to be paid back in the case of pensions as nothing has been borrowed. You could make a case for PFI as debt, but that then again the cost of PFI is paid for by money generated by annual taxation. You can't be in debt for money you haven't spent - see my £10,000 food bill example.

How much to they pay you to post this b0llox?
 
#15
Oil_Slick said:
parapauk said:
msr said:
parapauk said:
OK, clearly I'm going to have to go over this again.

Public sector pensions and PFI are not debt, they are money that has to be spent in the future. Example:
And what is debt if it is not money which has to be paid back in the future? PFI is the governmental equivalent of what Enron did - i.e. hiding liabilities off your balance sheet.

Sorry, any credibility which you had has now gone.

msr
Nothing has to be paid back in the case of pensions as nothing has been borrowed. You could make a case for PFI as debt, but that then again the cost of PFI is paid for by money generated by annual taxation. You can't be in debt for money you haven't spent - see my £10,000 food bill example.

How much to they pay you to post this b0llox?
I could ask you the same question - anything to add?
 
#16
Parapauk, whichever way you try to colour it overall expenditure has been exceeding income for some time. Hence a debt of over 800 billion pounds which needs to be repayed. So current expenditure first has to be reigned back to a level where some money can be found to start paying back that debt while maintaining commitments.

Or are you saying its all rosy and there's not 800+ billion quid that is owed by everyone?
 
#17
parapauk said:
Oil_Slick said:
parapauk said:
msr said:
parapauk said:
OK, clearly I'm going to have to go over this again.

Public sector pensions and PFI are not debt, they are money that has to be spent in the future. Example:
And what is debt if it is not money which has to be paid back in the future? PFI is the governmental equivalent of what Enron did - i.e. hiding liabilities off your balance sheet.

Sorry, any credibility which you had has now gone.

msr
Nothing has to be paid back in the case of pensions as nothing has been borrowed. You could make a case for PFI as debt, but that then again the cost of PFI is paid for by money generated by annual taxation. You can't be in debt for money you haven't spent - see my £10,000 food bill example.

How much to they pay you to post this b0llox?
I could ask you the same question - anything to add?

Well paperpuke, I've got a real job with MOD, you? you seem to be a full time party propagandist for the Liebour Party and hence part of the problem.
 
#18
Ord_Sgt said:
Parapauk, whichever way you try to colour it overall expenditure has been exceeding income for some time. Hence a debt of over 800 billion pounds which needs to be repayed. So current expenditure first has to be reigned back to a level where some money can be found to start paying back that debt while maintaining commitments.

Or are you saying its all rosy and there's not 800+ billion quid that is owed by everyone?
No, it's awful, but the debate about how to fix it isn't helped by people using silly numbers instead of the real ones.
 
#19
Oil_Slick said:
parapauk said:
Oil_Slick said:
parapauk said:
msr said:
parapauk said:
OK, clearly I'm going to have to go over this again.

Public sector pensions and PFI are not debt, they are money that has to be spent in the future. Example:
And what is debt if it is not money which has to be paid back in the future? PFI is the governmental equivalent of what Enron did - i.e. hiding liabilities off your balance sheet.

Sorry, any credibility which you had has now gone.

msr
Nothing has to be paid back in the case of pensions as nothing has been borrowed. You could make a case for PFI as debt, but that then again the cost of PFI is paid for by money generated by annual taxation. You can't be in debt for money you haven't spent - see my £10,000 food bill example.

How much to they pay you to post this b0llox?
I could ask you the same question - anything to add?

Well paperpuke, I've got a real job with MOD, you? you seem to be a full time party propagandist for the Liebour Party and hence part of the problem.
Stop derailing the thread - agree, disagree, contribute a PoV on the topic, but otherwise, go to the NAAFI.
 
#20
parapauk said:
Ord_Sgt said:
Parapauk, whichever way you try to colour it overall expenditure has been exceeding income for some time. Hence a debt of over 800 billion pounds which needs to be repayed. So current expenditure first has to be reigned back to a level where some money can be found to start paying back that debt while maintaining commitments.

Or are you saying its all rosy and there's not 800+ billion quid that is owed by everyone?
No, it's awful, but the debate about how to fix it isn't helped by people using silly numbers instead of the real ones.

Well, once your One Eyed mate gets his P45 in May we'll know the REAL numbers, wonlt we paperpuke?
 

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