PTSD Awareness March

Discussion in 'Charities and Welfare' started by hitback, Mar 29, 2010.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. This March will be happening in central London on the 22 May 2010. I you would like to attend then please visit the website to get more information.

    The following Petition needs your signatures. Mark and several others from campaigning groups will be delivering this petition on the 22 May 2010. We all know that there are many suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and other mental health issues due to their service history. All that is being asked of the MoD and Ministers is to allow for alternative methods of treatment to be used.

    Thank you to the site for its support in advance.


  2. lf you would like to support and promote our cause, and are available on 22nd May, and in London please feel free to join us.
  3. It's strange how so many people on here have an opinion on all military matter and voice it so loudly.

    There was an invite sent out by BFBS for users of this site to go to the defence debate last Tuesday, although only two users came forward and went. Is the same going to happen when your asked to show your support for our service personnel and veterans suffering from Mental Illness / PTSD, the march is to highlight the issues caused by these illnesses.

    We have veterans committing suicide, going to prison, homelessness. We also have serving personnel being admin discharged from service with these conditions just to keep the stats down plus the cost for pre-release and pension rights, not to mention AFCS....

    I hope user will be willing to logon to the FB

    Or the website:

    Thank you for your Time


  4. Sorry gents but I'm going to call you on this. The statistics on your website are, frankly, nonsense.

    How common is PTSD?
    We know that 30% or 3 out of every 10 people that experience a traumatic event will go on to develop PTSD. In 2008 the Ministry of Defence (MOD) recorded a total number of service personnel within the U.K as approximately 191,000 men and women that may all be exposed to traumatic events some of which are listed above. Therefore we can assume that approximately 50,000 armed forces personnel may be suffering from PTSD at any time.

    Where on earth did you get those numbers from?

    PTSD is actually a very rare consequence of witnessing violent incidents or being involved in them. Acute Stress Reactions are more common but even then the vast majority don't turn into full blown PTSD.

    What "alternative methods of treatment" would you like to see used? The only treatment that has any evidenced efficacy is CBT, with or without the addition of EMDR. This is much more successful than the 10% you claim. If it was only 10% then the DH wouldn't be pouring millions of pounds into programmes to improve access to this therapy fo the whole population.

    I'm all for people raising awareness of PTSD issues but using statistics that bear no resemblance to reality is not the way to do it.
  5. Thank you for that but it is not my website or my stats. Then again you would probably say that service personnel with mental health problems aren't admin discharged. Why don't you put your questions to the site owners and they could answer it directly or email you in person. For what purpose would the government and the DH spend so much money on CBT? Please give your figures on quote above if not 10%?

    What is the time frame to become qualified in CBT or using EMDR...I have asked several questions on here and Rumration about Confidentiality [fmed8/8a], admin discharge [known service personnel with PTSD/PTSR] numbers would be nice( that is why we got the JPA in), drink and drug increase and not to forget self harmers. If you are so well informed then please give figures on all three services...The no nonsense figures please.

    Once again not my site not my stats

    All the very best Hitback
  6. If you want the numbers I suggest you put in an FOI request and see if they'll entertain it. The latest reliable research evidence is summarised here:

    and runs at 4.8% developing PTSD at some point, nothing like the 30% mentioned on the website.

    The MOD don't give out exact injury stats for any other injuries currently and don't think they will for this either. It's well known that some veterans struggle to cope after service in many ways, mainly in forming and maintaining relationships, loss of sense of purpose and problems with alcohol and or drugs.

    However only a relatively small proportion of this is due to PTSD per se. Help exists for service personnel who do have PTSD and is extremely good, with better access to CBT and EMDR than for the civilian population as a whole. I'd be very surprised if someone with diagnosed PTSD and under the care of a DCMHT would be discharged as an admin discharge.

    There's no such thing as PTSR, I assume you mean Acute Stress Reaction and this is not the same thing as PTSD. ASR does not lead to PTSD in the large majority of cases, and normally only lasts a few days.

    There is any amount of readily accessible research on the efficacy of CBT. It is the only therapy with any proven benefit in PTSD, sometimes with EMDR and often in conjunction with medication. It's the only therapy recommended by NICE for PTSD. Whilst it doesn't help everyone the success rate is very good. You can never really cure PTSD, more you enable people with techniques that mean that it doesn't have such a large effect or impact on their life.

    In terms of putting money into CBT, access for anyone has been very patchy and difficult, and CBT is also recommended for depressive illnesses. There are now projects being rolled out to recruit and train many more therapists so that access is much easier. All psych nurses should be able to do CBT to a useful level, and a one year course will produce a skilled and effective therapist from scratch. There are also Masters and PhD type courses for those who wish to. EMDR courses are much shorter.
  7. I would say to you right now DON'T be shocked at this: :oops:

    "However only a relatively small proportion of this is due to PTSD per se. Help exists for service personnel who do have PTSD and is extremely good, with better access to CBT and EMDR than for the civilian population as a whole. I'd be very surprised if someone with diagnosed PTSD and under the care of a DCMHT would be discharged as an admin discharge."

    It has [is] happening and several people have come forward, I believe it will be coming into the public domain soon....

    :? I believe your department needs to get together and discuss what you are calling these conditions, your statement above " There's no such thing as PTSR", this is from another RMN.

    "By widening the description to PTSR, more people can be included and helped.

    I have no idea why you are so angry (or indeed if you are angry though this is the impression I get) but please DON'T give everyone else the impression that Defence Mental Health Services do nothing to help. We are highly trained, switched on people and from my experiece are not limited by either diagnostic labels or single treatment regimes.

    I have always been a great beleiver in the idea that when I get issued with "standardised patients" with "standardised problems" I will use "standardised treatments". Till then I will continue to use whatever works for the individual I am talking to; EMDR, CBT, SFT, guided visualisation, practical problem solving, whatever it takes."

    :D Now seeing how I've answered some of your questions maybe you would do me the pleasure of answering the following:

    On what tariff under the AFCS is PTSR?
    On what tariff under the AFCS is PTSD?

    Under what part of British Military Law could you prevent a client diagnosed with PTSD/PTSR from being dishonourably / Admin discharged from service due to violent, excessive consumption of alcohol or recreational drugs, lack of drive to MCP? I am asking this for a very important reason by the way. Which I will use in context with others my reply.

    The reason for this post was to highlight the March in London on the 22 May to raise awareness over alternative therapy. The website has been given so please feel free to take a look around it. Though I have very little to do with the March, I do believe there are other options open to the treatment of PTSD or PTSR?

    Thank you for your information I will now do some more research and see if what you have stated is factual...


  8. PTSR means ASR and shouldn't be called PTSR (in my opinion, I'll also point out that you used the term first) as it links it to PTSD and they are quite separate. PTSR/ASR is a short term condition ie a few days or maybe weeks and is really a normal response to a traumatic event rather than a 'condition' as such though we can help to get people through it safely and more quickly.

    It won't be on AFCS as it's a transient and temporary 'condition' that normally gets better. I'm not really interested in how much PTSD is worth from a financial angle, it's not what I there to do. I'm there to help people recover not get them payments.

    I'd agree with everything that P-F says on that thread incidentally.

    Violence is not a symptom of PTSD and the condition is often used an excuse by people who claim to have PTSD and actually don't. Sadly alcohol abuse can be a byproduct, but military law is quite clear about those who use illicit drugs and I don't see why exceptions should be made in this case.

    This defence of violence, as I've said on other threads, is only normally seen in forces personnel and only in very rare occasions in other (much larger) groups with PTSD. As has been stated, ex-forces personnel form a small percentage of PTSD diagnoses in the UK, the largest cause is childhood sexual abuse.

    There are no alternative therapies that have been shown to work for PTSD thus far so I'm not sure how a march will help. They aren't going to be used until their NICE approved and I've never seen any evidence for any of these therapies which even nearly meets the standards required.

    What other remedies do you believe would work?
  9. Thanks for that information. NICE was set up to council drugs and their use: yes-no? So how do they play a part in therapy treatment?

    Please tell me why alcohol abuse and drug abuse has risen in the armed forces. What about self harmers is all this down to child abuse? and how come we didn't see this in such numbers before?

    PTSR should have been used by your colleague if thats not the correct name and should have corrected me. I mean they have corrected all other areas they believed to be incorrect....

    Hypno, Timeline, NLP therapy is being used to great effect. I understand / believe it will not eradicate or cure the problem although it goes a long way towards a better quality of life for the sufferer. PTSD as you stated is rare, how do you know that? I mean PTSD can take up to 14 years to appear, during that time frame the person might have been getting treatment for PTSR/ASR, personality disorder and drink etc.

  10. Stats on mental health (broken down by ICD-10) are published on the DASA website. This shows PTSD and substance abuse figures. The rate for the latter showed a drop between 2007 and 2008 (09 stats not yet published).

    So the picture is not clear cut. MIND puts the general UK rate for all mental illness in the region of 25%, the military rate (estimate I saw 27%, but there may be others), is not so different. And with the exception of males under 20, suicide rates are lower. Is it time to ask what the military is doing right, and build on it?
  11. IWhen looking at psychiatric illness NICE are more interested in conditions and the best treatments for these conditions. Their guidance is about best practice rather than specific medications.

    Try looking up PTSD on the NICE website, all you are interested in terms of treatment is there.

    The therapies you claim have never been shown to be effective in PTSD to any level that satisfies any sensible research criteria. They certainly aren't being used to 'great effect' by any of the skilled PTSD practitioners I know, they aren't being used at all.

    PTSD is not a new condition, hence we know its prevalence. The majority of sufferers are showing symptoms a long time before 14 years afterwards, though a small number aren't diagnosed for a number of years, mainly because they haven't seen someone who can diagnose, ie a psychiatrist.

    How do you know alcohol misuse and drug use are increasing in the forces? Which figures have you seen? I haven't seen a great increase in self harm either.

    Vamp, you're spot on with your comment.
  12. Have you got any stats to back that up? In my fathers day the SQMS truck used to be filled with yellow handbags prior to going out on exercise, I've never seen that happen in my time in the army. We used to have a bar while in Bosnia, we dont have them in Afghanistan, from what I can see the use of alcohol in the army is reducing.
    I havnt seen a rise in drug abuse.
  13. Having had a quick glance at the site, I'm not entirely sure what they intend to achieve with the march. Do they want to raise the profile of PTSD in general or just for ex-forces and aside from trying to get some types of therapies introduced I can't see much more of a reason.

    As I'm still serving I don't have any experience of trying to get help for PTSD/mental health problems in civvy street but the experiences I had whilst serving have been very positive (once my unit stopped getting involved).

    As for the tarriff that PTSD comes under on the AFCS that can be found on their website, which I can't be bothered to look up at the moment.
  14. Thank you for your posts. ignorance is not an excuse but not something you should be proud of either.... Best Hitback
  15. While there seems to be much confussion over what is PTSD and what is not and this in part promoted by the Dept of Health for what ever reason I do not know.
    There have been too many promised made by central government in relationship to 'Priority Treatment', while passed in 2008 as I recall, I know of few who have actually been accpected as Veterans for Priority Treatments.
    With too many who believe by seeing their GP shows a weakness and WE Verterans are never weak, are we? Lets not forget, there are those worse off that you and I, aren't they?
    There is no one reason for Service / Combat Mental Health illness, no matter what it is, the MoD / Dept of Health are blaming much of it on excess use of alcohol and or illegal drugs and why would that be, what are they trying to hide from and how deep does it go once we are removed from the Military TEAM we once served with.