Proposed new tax: Over 40's to pay more for Social Care

500 odd quid in road tax for a car I do about 1200 miles a year in, yet a Prious driver can do a million miles and pay nothing.
Wrong. 'Prious' (I take it you mean Toyota Prius?) drivers also pay Vehicle Excise Duty. If you're so upset, get a different car.

Private dentist which is just as well since the NHS have removed all their services bar extractions
Wrong.

Are you often prone to histrionics?
 

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
As we are discussing tax just look at how our tax money is been spent now.


Nothing has been decided but the fact that money is been spent on this low life who is not getting out of prison except in a wooden box is quite frankly laughable.
Pity the other killer didn’t do a proper job as he’s spending the rest of his natural banged up anyway.
Its stories like this that make me wish the rope was an option for scum like this.
 
Often said by people who think the fact they pay some tax means everything is owed to them.

You have accepted income tax cuts over the years, you are likely to have accepted child benefit (and schooling for them) and almost every year of your life the government has borrowed money (That obviously needs to be paid back with interest).

Do you think your tax paid for it all?
Child benefit for the first child came started in 77,I can't remember any 'income tax' cuts,I'm retired and,still pay 'income tax'. If you want to bump your gums, might I suggest you look no further than the abuse of "The National Insurance Fund" that for years ran a surplus and,was to be used to pay for 'the dole' and Pensions.

All Governments used it as a 'slush fund'...interest free long term finance for stupid schemes. Then it started to be encroached upon with Maternity Grants and other,benefits for 'single mothers. Lets not forget,all those who paid for 40 odd years and,popped their clogs just before retirement along with, those that retired and died a few years later !

No, I didn't pay for it all but, I and my contemporaries certainly did and, are still paying !
 
Child benefit for the first child came started in 77,I can't remember any 'income tax' cuts,I'm retired and,still pay 'income tax'. If you want to bump your gums, might I suggest you look no further than the abuse of "The National Insurance Fund" that for years ran a surplus and,was to be used to pay for 'the dole' and Pensions.

All Governments used it as a 'slush fund'...interest free long term finance for stupid schemes. Then it started to be encroached upon with Maternity Grants and other,benefits for 'single mothers. Lets not forget,all those who paid for 40 odd years and,popped their clogs just before retirement along with, those that retired and died a few years later !

No, I didn't pay for it all but, I and my contemporaries certainly did and, are still paying !
Then let me assist you, Maggie cut the basic tax rate from 33% to 30% in her first year, by the time the conservatives left in 1997 it was 23%.

There has been no abuse of NI fund, its just simply smoke and mirrors that the outraged public cant grasp.

If you have 2 bank accounts, one that pays for your medical bills and one that pays for your other outgoings. If your other outgoings are more than you put in and you "borrow" from your medical account, has it made the slightest bit of difference to your total outgoings?

The Government just do the same except on a bigger scale. So there is no point in pretending that the nasty government took "your" money to spend on something that the country in general didnt use.

There has been talk for years about merging NI and income tax as in effect they are both taxes, the money of which is spent on running the country.
 
You can pay mine then, happy to buy you a beer in return, in the red lion(when open)

I’ll pay as much as I do my own tax.

Can’t say fairer than that.
 
Then let me assist you, Maggie cut the basic tax rate from 33% to 30% in her first year, by the time the conservatives left in 1997 it was 23%.

There has been no abuse of NI fund, its just simply smoke and mirrors that the outraged public cant grasp.

If you have 2 bank accounts, one that pays for your medical bills and one that pays for your other outgoings. If your other outgoings are more than you put in and you "borrow" from your medical account, has it made the slightest bit of difference to your total outgoings?

The Government just do the same except on a bigger scale. So there is no point in pretending that the nasty government took "your" money to spend on something that the country in general didnt use.

There has been talk for years about merging NI and income tax as in effect they are both taxes, the money of which is spent on running the country.

That would be 1979 when I was earning a pittance anyway and married junior ranks were having to claim housing benefit to pay their rent and, the child allowance went up to £3 a week,hardly a fortune compared to 1997 onwards. It's all very well quoting percentages but, if you talk hard cash and, the rise in wages,they were still taking the same amount of money out of the population !

The NI Fund has been abused and misused,regardless of your opinion !

You really do need to keep abreast of the Governments sleight of hand ! I'm well aware of Government 'borrowing', that doesn't mean I and others have to like it when, we see it squandered on vanity projects and,subsidies.
 
That would be 1979 when I was earning a pittance anyway and married junior ranks were having to claim housing benefit to pay their rent and, the child allowance went up to £3 a week,hardly a fortune compared to 1997 onwards. It's all very well quoting percentages but, if you talk hard cash and, the rise in wages,they were still taking the same amount of money out of the population !

The NI Fund has been abused and misused,regardless of your opinion !

You really do need to keep abreast of the Governments sleight of hand ! I'm well aware of Government 'borrowing', that doesn't mean I and others have to like it when, we see it squandered on vanity projects and,subsidies.

So you didnt even pay much tax in 1979?

The NI hasnt been abused, its just money moved from one department to another, do you think if the Government hadnt touched the NI fund you would have got the rest of the freebies?

If someone todays has two kids the cost to the state to educate them is approx £146000


Plus child benefit (apparently you can claim until the kids are 20 and stil in education but lets stick with 18 )

Another 37k over 18 years

2 X births, maternity/paternity leave (if taken), 18 years of childhood medical bills, youth clubs, play parks, etc Probably (a very conservative) 30k

A average couple with 2 kids will cost the state more than 210k over 18 years (about 11.6k a year) for their children alone.

That is just one example, now add in the costs of roads, police, the military, the NHS (minus the money spent on kids) pensions, local councils, social housing, benefits, fire service, etc etc

Do you think your average person pays that much in tax? I doubt most couples with a single earner with two kids could manage 11.6k in taxes (and NI) a year alone before the age of 30, in the army you would have to be a SSgt before you paid that.

But hey, cling to the claim that you paid into NI and the government took the money to spend on you (on average) elsewhere so its their fault there in no money left, not yours or anyone else who took all the benefits of the state spending money.
 
The NI Fund has been abused and misused,regardless of your opinion !

Reading up on this I would disagree.

For 2019/2020:

HMG received £143Bn in NI contributions

The NHS is funded mainly from general taxation with some funding from NICs.

NICs are primarily there to qualify for certain benefits and the state pension.

The Department of Health and Social Care’s budget was £133Bn.

Judging by this information it appears NICs is not misused.
 
So you didnt even pay much tax in 1979?

The NI hasnt been abused, its just money moved from one department to another, do you think if the Government hadnt touched the NI fund you would have got the rest of the freebies?

If someone todays has two kids the cost to the state to educate them is approx £146000


Plus child benefit (apparently you can claim until the kids are 20 and stil in education but lets stick with 18 )

Another 37k over 18 years

2 X births, maternity/paternity leave (if taken), 18 years of childhood medical bills, youth clubs, play parks, etc Probably (a very conservative) 30k

A average couple with 2 kids will cost the state more than 210k over 18 years (about 11.6k a year) for their children alone.

That is just one example, now add in the costs of roads, police, the military, the NHS (minus the money spent on kids) pensions, local councils, social housing, benefits, fire service, etc etc

Do you think your average person pays that much in tax? I doubt most couples with a single earner with two kids could manage 11.6k in taxes (and NI) a year alone before the age of 30, in the army you would have to be a SSgt before you paid that.

But hey, cling to the claim that you paid into NI and the government took the money to spend on you (on average) elsewhere so its their fault there in no money left, not yours or anyone else who took all the benefits of the state spending money.
Some amazing assumptions on your part.

I paid as much tax as required on my military pay (were you even paying tax in the 60's-70's?)

The state didn't pay for my son to go to university, I did. No I wasn't rich, back then any grant was means tested and even 100% wasn't a patch on your figures. And your quote on Child Benefit is way off,my son took his degree late 80's...child benefit,really ? It cost me over £4,000 per annum and, my son who is a vegetarian worked in a MaccyD's to supplement his education.

Basically you're talking out of your arse and, applying benefits available today, if you had been paying back when I got married, you would actually get it.

By the way...the reason it is the NI Fund is, so it can't be raided. Brown wanted to change it's name in 98,to enable it to be used but, got f****d of by Parliament. I would suggest you use something other than Google as your reference source.

Oh, unless it's changed in the last hour or so...Roads,Police,Fire Service,Social Housing are paid out of my Council Tax contributions. Don't worry I'm sure someone in the Cloud Cuckoo Land you're living in will explain it in simple words that even you can understand.

Must go, my Horlicks is getting cold !
 
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Reading up on this I would disagree.

For 2019/2020:

HMG received £143Bn in NI contributions

The NHS is funded mainly from general taxation with some funding from NICs.

NICs are primarily there to qualify for certain benefits and the state pension.

The Department of Health and Social Care’s budget was £133Bn.

Judging by this information it appears NICs is not misused.

Someone else who thinks the World started in 2000.

Try going back to look at the history of the Fund and, it's original use and, abuse by successive governments.

You might also look at Gordon Brown's attempt to rename it.

As it is a government 'Fund', any monies contained in it can't be used for anything other than for it's original purpose.
 
Some amazing assumptions on your part.

I paid as much tax as required on my military pay (were you even paying tax in the 60's-70's?)

The state didn't pay for my son to go to university, I did. No I wasn't rich, back then any grant was means tested and even 100% wasn't a patch on your figures. And your quote on Child Benefit is way off,my son took his degree late 80's...child benefit,really ? It cost me over £4,000 per annum and, my son who is a vegetarian worked in a MaccyD's to supplement his education.

Basically you're talking out of your arse and, applying benefits available today, if you had been paying back when I got married, you would actually get it.

By the way...the reason it is the NI Fund is, so it can't be raided. Brown wanted to change it's name in 98,to enable it to be used but, got f****d of by Parliament. I would suggest you use something other than Google as your reference source.

Oh, unless it's changed in the last hour or so...Roads,Police,Fire Service,Social Housing are paid out of my Council Tax contributions. Don't worry I'm sure someone in the Cloud Cuckoo Land you're living in will explain it in simple words that even you can understand.

Must go, my Horlicks is getting cold !

I'm amazed at your


No assumption on my part, just because you "paid the tax required" doesnt mean you paid enough tax to cover what you took

Did you pay for your childrens primary, secondary and 6th form?

And no my figures are not way off Im using todays figures because I cant possibly know all the figures in the past, but as you admitted to earning a pittance, its a fair bet you paid **** all in taxes.

Who said the NI fund cant be raided? Its just a tax, why do you have a problem with that? Is it so you can keep up the pretense that you paid in?


Once again proving you think you pay in, do you think the council pay for all of that?


Fire service


Major roads



But, but, but you paid in...


Basically the average person takes out more than they put in, but hey you paid in NI and council tax you must be owed something.
 
As it is a government 'Fund', any monies contained in it can't be used for anything other than for it's original purpose.

Who told you that?
 
Someone else who thinks the World started in 2000.

Try going back to look at the history of the Fund and, it's original use and, abuse by successive governments.

You might also look at Gordon Brown's attempt to rename it.

As it is a government 'Fund', any monies contained in it can't be used for anything other than for it's original purpose.

Lets have a proper chat about this for once rather than descending into abuse.

You keep saying it’s been abused, can you explain how? And show evidence.

I‘m happy to believe you, but what I posted earlier was from a quick google and I see nothing that makes me believe the information.
 

Mr_Relaxed

War Hero
The only thing I suspect that stops HMRC merging the two taxes that are PAYE and NIC, is that NI is a tax that employers and employees pay. There are different thresholds to paying it as well. There's a perception as well I think - PAYE is the Government taking my hard earned money, whereas NIC is me paying for my pension and the NHS (no matter how naive that thought is).

NI is a tax that triggers access to certain benefits. I have been to a number of tax seminars over the years where the speaker will remind the business owners in the audience who pay themselves a minimal salary and top-up with dividends to keep on top of their NIC contributions.
 
Lets have a proper chat about this for once rather than descending into abuse.

You keep saying it’s been abused, can you explain how? And show evidence.

I‘m happy to believe you, but what I posted earlier was from a quick google and I see nothing that makes me believe the information.
I googled too.

'The three British National Insurance Funds hold the contributions of the National Insurance Scheme, set up by the Government of the United Kingdom in 1911. It was reformed in 1948 and assumed broadly its current form in 1975, when the separate National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) and National Insurance (Reserve) Funds were merged with it. In the Beveridge Report this was the basis of a universal insurance system for all British people. "first and foremost a plan of insurance – of giving in return for contributions benefits up to subsistence levels, as of right and without means test, so that individuals may build freely upon it". My apologies that it's Wiki as the source.

Nowhere in there does it mention 'Maternity Grants' and, other 'benefits' now Financed by the NIF.

Unemployment benefit and State Pensions...nothing else.

My State Pension is financed by contributions being made now,just as my contributions financed my parents and Grandparents state pensions,as has always been the case. You will also note that there is a 'surplus' every year but, successive governments always 'plead poverty' and, try to intimate the State Pension is a 'benefit',so much so that myth is starting to become a reality amongst younger taxpayers,who are convinced that the pension is paid from the benefits budget.
 
Nowhere in there does it mention 'Maternity Grants' and, other 'benefits' now Financed by the NIF.

Where do you think the money would come from for these benefits if the state didnt dip into the NI fund?

I dont see you campaigning to pay higher taxes to fund it all.

Happy to pay less taxes then complained about your special fund not being used the way you think it should.
 
I googled too.

'The three British National Insurance Funds hold the contributions of the National Insurance Scheme, set up by the Government of the United Kingdom in 1911. It was reformed in 1948 and assumed broadly its current form in 1975, when the separate National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) and National Insurance (Reserve) Funds were merged with it. In the Beveridge Report this was the basis of a universal insurance system for all British people. "first and foremost a plan of insurance – of giving in return for contributions benefits up to subsistence levels, as of right and without means test, so that individuals may build freely upon it". My apologies that it's Wiki as the source.

Nowhere in there does it mention 'Maternity Grants' and, other 'benefits' now Financed by the NIF.

Unemployment benefit and State Pensions...nothing else.

My State Pension is financed by contributions being made now,just as my contributions financed my parents and Grandparents state pensions,as has always been the case. You will also note that there is a 'surplus' every year but, successive governments always 'plead poverty' and, try to intimate the State Pension is a 'benefit',so much so that myth is starting to become a reality amongst younger taxpayers,who are convinced that the pension is paid from the benefits budget.

And in what way does that make it abused as you claim?
 
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