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Proposed new High Speed Rail connection

jvb1988

War Hero
Not sure how you worked that out, I booked a train from London to Edinburgh for the last crawl up there, £80 1st class return, booked 3 months ahead. Now to do the same journey by plane, I have the flight price, return train journey to airport of choice (Stansted or Gatwick) and the cost of getting from the airport into Edinburgh.

When i was at Universty and living in Norfolk I always used to travel courtesy of Flybe from Norwich International ( oxymoron) to Manchester Invariably worked out silghtly cheaper and about four hours faster than the rail service and the tranfer t uni was pretty cheap as well
 

Johned

Old-Salt
We are a small country so do we really need TGV/ICE style trains with their exotic speeds. London to Birmingham less any intermediate stations seems rather an expensive option when we are all having to economise in other areas! Harking back to the past, if the McMillan Tory government who gave Marples/Beeching their remit to devastate the rail system that existed then, had spent five minutes thinking about the future there would not be all this controversy now about whose backyard the line will traverse and whether it will affect the welfare of the lesser spotted crested newt or whatever! Far better to spend any cash on upgrading what we have and aim for speeds of 100 mph or so all round (except for stopping services of course) and endeavour to put back on rail where it rightly belongs, a lot of bulk
goods traffic presently clogging up our roads. We already have two London-Brum routes; where is the problem?
 
If we want to employ people, conserve land AND have a jolly good public transport system, why don't we extend the CHUNNEL to Birmingham, Manchester and on it Edinburgh?

Don't use machines, we'll use doleys. 4 hour shifts on the shovels should just about sort it, in return for the fine dole we give them. Excavated slag can be used to create more land or protect existing flood plains. Edinburgh to Paris is 544 miles (as the crow flys), the Chunnel goes at about 70mph so we'll assume you could get from Edinburgh to Paris in about 8 hours, put sleepers on for that extra bonzer travel, instead of a flight.

Then we'll carry on the UK underground with tunnels linking Brum and Manc, Bristol and a few others. Especially if we have freight to move, get it on the rails in stead of the roads.

Likewise, open up the canals again for that sedate voyage of freight or commuter.

Then ban trucks from the roads on weekends, bank holidays and during rush hour.
 
As a daily commuter on the first Highspeed link, I'll just chuck my tenpennorth in. The HS service in the southeast is excellent; My daily commute is 1 hour each way, as opposed to 1 & 3/4 hours on the normal service. The service is also reliable, in the last 6 months (including a certain amount of snow"grinding the country to a halt"), I have been late twice (once for the snow, when no other trains appeared to be moving, and once for a signal failure). The fares are bloody expensive, but in my case I feel they're worth it.

The railway system in this country has been massively under-invested for decades; HS2 is an attempt to provide a modern service northwards, as Mr Logic suggests in a replica of european TGV/ICE. Surely this is a good thing? There are an awful lot of home county NIMBYs whingeing about this, but in the same way as the Heathrow protestors they have nothing better to offer, just as long as their back gardens aren't disturbed.

Give it a chance.

Couldn't agree more,HS1 is about £4 more expensive off peak,and was the only line working for the whole of the snowy period.

As for Eurostar,mind blowing,I can get from my house to Strasbourg in just under 5 hours in style,if I flew it's 3 hours to the airport,report an hour before the flight,hour plus for the flight,get to the other end and fight my way across Strasbourg,Eurostar to Paris,and TGV onwards the only way to fly,very civilised.

I wonder how many of the NIMBY's complaining about HS2,were as vocal when huge swathes of Kent were being ripped up for HS1,convenient to take the kids of to Disneyland Paris for half term,but who gave a **** about the locals.

Surprisingly enough the noise issue shouldn't arise,if the HS1/Eurostar line is anything to go by,they have all but killed the noise even from about 100yds away,so that's not an issue then,next? ;-)
 
Not sure how you worked that out, I booked a train from London to Edinburgh for the last crawl up there, £80 1st class return, booked 3 months ahead. Now to do the same journey by plane, I have the flight price, return train journey to airport of choice (Stansted or Gatwick) and the cost of getting from the airport into Edinburgh.

Yes, because we can always book travel 3 months in advance.

But I can play that game too. Flybe, 3 months in advance, London Gatwick to Edinburgh, Monday 13th June. 4 flights @ £44.98 Inc Tax one way.
 
The railway system in this country has been massively under-invested for decades; HS2 is an attempt to provide a modern service northwards, as Mr Logic suggests in a replica of european TGV/ICE. Surely this is a good thing? There are an awful lot of home county NIMBYs whingeing about this, but in the same way as the Heathrow protestors they have nothing better to offer, just as long as their back gardens aren't disturbed.

Give it a chance.

Whilst I don't disagree with anything you've said, money is the major issue here. I think most people would agree that it's a nice idea, but is it a nice idea we can afford given that we're flat broke?
 
Yes, because we can always book travel 3 months in advance.

But I can play that game too. Flybe, 3 months in advance, London Gatwick to Edinburgh, Monday 13th June. 4 flights @ £44.98 Inc Tax one way.

Which is still more than £80 1st class return,and you can take how many large suitcases? ;-)
 
M

Mr_Logic

Guest
Mr logic, £17 billion says that it is a bad idea along with the millions that have already been spent on the planning of the project and the further £13 billion for the full completed project.
And why ? Just to shave a few minutes of a rail journey .
Sooner the fraction of the money is used to upgrade the existing lines and the rest of the coffers put back in the public domain.

Your views seem to represent world-class NIMBYism. I was actually fairly ambivalent when I submitted my previous post. However, 5 minutes of internet research shows why we should push ahead with developing this line.

Which nations currently have invested in high-speed railways? Wikipedia lists France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the USA and China. Our railways were built in the 19th century and and built small. If you travelled by Eurostar before High Speed 1 was opened the train would speed through France at 180 mph and then slow to a comparative crawl through Kent. The point of the concept of the new line is to connect large cities and Heathrow to the European high-speed network. If all of other leading developed nations are investing in high speed rail, we should at least be investigating doing the same. We need to be thinking in terms of developing within European and world markets and demonstrating the technological lead that will lead to market leadership and exports.

High speed rail will create greater capacity on extant routes for slower commuter traffic and freight traffic. I think you will find that new rail lines can be engineered to be far more resilient to the effects of weather than our airports and motorways proved to be this year. Lets be bold about this and not backward looking. Its about development and entreprenuerial spirit. It may seem expensive but compared to how much money we gifted to banks a couple of years ago, a huge, modern engineering scheme such as this can only be a good thing. Our economy is still 5th or 6th in the world. The investment can be found, no matter how dark things seem this year with PR11 and SDSR. What would the Victorians have done?

Everyone can cite an example of a cheap flight or a train being late, and yet the TGV and ICE networks continue to expand for undoubtedly good reasons. We should develop our rail network as adventurously as our airports, roads and ports. I think High Speed 2 is designed for more ambitious things than taking students to Norwich, or shoppers from Leamington Spa to the Bull Ring, unless of course there is sufficient market demand for those routes. Its only £40Bn or so which we would give to bankers or waste on foreign aid, FFS.

Anyway, those are my views this Saturday afternoon. By the way, I live in Hampshire and the line won't be going through my back yard.
 
Which is still more than £80 1st class return,and you can take how many large suitcases? ;-)

Well, if we want to play silly buggers, I could drive there and back for much the same using the wifes fuel sipping shopping car and take a dozen suitcases.;-P
 
Well, if we want to play silly buggers, I could drive there and back for much the same using the wifes fuel sipping shopping car and take a dozen suitcases.;-P

Yeah,but you couldn't have a snooze,or read War and Peace on they way,could,ya? 8)
 
Yeah,but you couldn't have a snooze,or read War and Peace on they way,could,ya? 8)

True, but you don't tend to have to sleep in the car for a couple of days like you do at airports when the staff/situation/icelandic volcanoes goes tits so the big books are optional. ;-P
 

R_soul

Swinger
I'm all for it - the fast connection to London is awesome, but the through connection to the continent is the game changer. Finally an alternative to flying from the horrible midlands airports to brussels, amsterdam etc, and an opportunity to inject some competition, which might help all of us by reducing the monopoly that air transport has on those routes. Not forgetting that High Speed rail has resulted in huge increases in property prices along the lines, and massively attracted external investment in the regions that it serves. It's expensive, but then so is Crossrail, which is costing £2billion a year, and only benefiting Londoners. The majority of the opposition is from proper NIMBYs, who've conveniently forgotten that it does follow some of the Great Central Railway route, that has lain dormant for 40 years, which is right in their back gardens. Besides, the compensation scheme is excellent, and the noise mitigation measures far in excess of what you'd get if you had another Motorway shoved in your front lawn. The Chilterns may not want it, but what's the alternative, another 20 years of mediocrity and being overtaken economically by Spain?

Really? How is that then as if you live on the line of the HS2 route you won't actually be able to get on the train? You can see the line and hear it but not get on it. So how will that increase property prices?
 

jvb1988

War Hero
If we want to employ people, conserve land AND have a jolly good public transport system, why don't we extend the CHUNNEL to Birmingham, Manchester and on it Edinburgh?

Don't use machines, we'll use doleys. 4 hour shifts on the shovels should just about sort it, in return for the fine dole we give them. Excavated slag can be used to create more land or protect existing flood plains. Edinburgh to Paris is 544 miles (as the crow flys), the Chunnel goes at about 70mph so we'll assume you could get from Edinburgh to Paris in about 8 hours, put sleepers on for that extra bonzer travel, instead of a flight.

Then we'll carry on the UK underground with tunnels linking Brum and Manc, Bristol and a few others. Especially if we have freight to move, get it on the rails in stead of the roads.

Likewise, open up the canals again for that sedate voyage of freight or commuter.

Then ban trucks from the roads on weekends, bank holidays and during rush hour.

As im on JSA but activley seeking/pursuing most avenues can I be a supervisor instead ? Ill bring the cat o nine tails
 
Really? How is that then as if you live on the line of the HS2 route you won't actually be able to get on the train? You can see the line and hear it but not get on it. So how will that increase property prices?

Could this help? YouTube - "Catching" the mail from a Railway Post Office (RPO) car

jvb1988, supervisors will indeed required. Interviews will commence shortly prior to the start of construction. Bringing your own cat o nine tails will certainly be seen as advantagous.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
Whilst I don't disagree with anything you've said, money is the major issue here. I think most people would agree that it's a nice idea, but is it a nice idea we can afford given that we're flat broke?

Considering most of the holes we're still pissing money into (regardless of how brassick the country is) will produce the square root of fuck all, it'll make a nice change for government investment to actually have a useful legacy, surely?


Edited to add clarity - good luck with that!
 

jarrod248

LE
Gallery Guru
The govt creams off loads of money from these franchises which is why the east coast mainline can't make a profit. If they are serious about public transport invest in it. It says something that we can't travel any quicker than the mallard.
 
If done well, any money spent on a new high speed line would at least produce something rather than just being thrown away. Perhaps we could fund it by diverting the legal aid budget, overseas aid and the money the NHS spends on interpreters and homeopathy. It would make a nice change to have something to show for massive spending.
 
Excellent discussion!

But . . . just a gentle prod in the direction of - A high-speed "MAGLEV" monorail system - which I had thought might catch the imagination . . . ?! :)

. . . . . A high-speed "MAGLEV" monorail system, would employ light(er) weight aircraft fuselage type "carriages", and provide aircraft type accommodation and facilities. They could/would be, propelled along, and be suspended beneath - or on-top-of/astride - elevated "rails".

Whilst the "rails" would be supported by pylons, the whole infrastructure would be not much more visually intrusive than electricity power lines, and would consume/use no more land (an increasingly scare resource in itself), then would be required at the base of each of the individual pylons.

With such a low cost/requirement for land/real-estate, there should be less objections than for the High Speed Rail proposal, and many imaginative solutions for a new "MAGLEV" monorail system to be integrated into, and with, the existing and older technology transport infrastructure.

Maglev (transport) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

the_moff

Clanker
Maglev is a complete waste of money and effort. The build cost will be astronomical (around £1Bn per mile) and it has no compatibility with conventional rail. HS2 is designed as an extension to the pan-European high speed rail network which can carry passenger traffic and, on some lines, freight. Maglev has no place in such a system.
 

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