Proof that there's only one way to protect ourselves

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by stoatman, Jan 24, 2005.

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  2. OldSnowy

    OldSnowy LE Moderator Book Reviewer

    Fascinating story - and a lesson to us all :) Of course, no politician is going to do anything about this. The right to bear arms as individuals (as opposed to 'citizens') is anathema to all socialists and centralists. People who carry weapons are less amenable to being pushed around, whether literally or figuratively. I mean, next you know we will be able to defend ourselves against burglars.

    For a good read about this, try the old SF (Science Fiction, not Ultimate Farce) novels by A E Van Vogt - The Weapons shops of Isher/The Weapon Makers.
  3. Very interesting stuff, which will undoubtedly be yet further proof that things like research and evidence are of very little interest to politicians when they are looking for new ways to repress, restrict and control us.
  4. Perhaps our pollies silently acknowledge the fact that, historically, the right to carry in the US had as much to do with defending themselves against assault as it did with the people being equipped to overthrow an unpopular government. Perhaps slightly anachronistic now, but I think that this principle is alluded to in the article.

    On a different note, it is legal to carry firearms in Washington but they must have been manufactured before a certain date (in the late 1800s I think). A good friend of mine was posted there for six months and took to carrying something like a peacemaker under a long coat after he realised that drug-related shoot outs were happening within earshot of the White House.
  5. Back in the late 80's it happened that officers of the Alburquerque Police Department were in dispute with the local authority over pay. Niether side was prepared to back down and so the cops called a strike, confident that the numbers of complaints, about burglaries and like crimes, would soon cause the bosses to fold...
    Ten days later nothing of the sort had happened, in fact the numbers of reported crimes actually took a nosedive.
    In desperation the cops tapped all their snitches, to find out what was going on...
    Simply put, the answer was that none of the goblins wanted to get blown away by nervous, heavily armed householders; folk who might ordinarily have called the police and left it to them, hoping not to lose too much.
    'When are you guys going back to work? It ain't safe out there!' was the reported reaction of one snitch. :lol:
    It does rather make one wonder whether our reliance on having a police force creates an environment that is more conducive to the safe conduct of crime?
    Certainly Richard Munday's article indicates that the 'gun culture' at the turn of the last century was a positive factor in the overall low crime statistics for that period.
    John Lott's studies also indicate that there is a 'spill-over' effect, in areas where the CCL (concealed carry law) operate, whereby those who choose not to carry are, in some measure, protected by those that do. Assaults that might have taken place, in a CCL area, do not, whereas the threat 'migrates' into areas where the CCL is not enacted. Goblins aren't totally stupid; why get shot? Take the soft option, boys!
    Of course, here, in Cool Britannia, they don't need to make a choice, do they? :evil:
  6. This is exactly my point when defending gun legistlation when confronted by tree huggers. i have a FAC and Shotgun Ticket and i also instruct kids to shoot. some people call me all the names under the sun. perhaps this kind of article may help the government make a descision or two? more than likely it wont.


    PS heard a rumour the labour administration were going to reverse the total ban on hand guns to allow .22 pistols (So we can host the olympics - including pistol shooting) then ban them again after.

  7. not a big fan of michael moore, but anyone who's seen 'bowling for columbine' would probably agree that some of his stats regarding 'gun culture' and the difference between canada and the US are quite interesting. Now, I'm not saying they're gospel, but having grown up in canada myself, it was perfectly normal to be around guns on a regular basis, clay-pigeon shooting etc, even got my first scoped .22 at 14. And although canadians actually own more guns per capita than the americans, violent crime due to registered, legal firearms is significantly lower.

    Also, the crime rate per capita is lower. Last year at xmas, my home town, quite large (c. half a million and quite urbanised) had our first and only murder of the year DEC 22.

    Just a bit of food for thought to add to the discussion. A caveat though, I'm not entirely confident in the stats I quoted, so I could've gotten them wrong, if so, feel free to correct me.
  8. We're at a strange place in history.

    It's far too late to do anything about erosion of personal freedom by democratic means but we still haven't reached the point at which armed insurrection would be deemed justified.
  9. The city in California that I live in used to have a significant crime problem until about 15 years ago. The city then elected a new sheriff who decided that anybody who wanted a concealed firearms permit could have one (the opposite to what is normal in California). The net result was that within a few years crime was down significantly with the most prolific offenders in the morgue.
  10. I seem to remember some story about a town in the liberal north banning guns only to find that a town in the deep south made it compulsory to carry firearms. Thus the southern mayor wrote to the northern mayor asking for the guns that that had been collected under their amnesty so that he could arm his townsfolk.

    Urban myth anybody?
  11. under the bill of rights 1600 ish every english man is allowed to own weapons for self defence.
    somebody was trying to sue the goverment for the right to own a rifle and service pistol don't know how far he got though?
  12. Cutaway

    Cutaway LE Reviewer

    Probably an urban myth Stickybomb, but Kennesaw in Georgia was the first town to enact a 'must own' bylaw.

    Until 2000, (the last time I had hard copy in my possession,) there had been only two firearms related incidents since the bylaw came into force. One was a suicide, but then if someone's set on topping themselves they'll find a way.

    The second was a drunk who argued that a .22 RF round wouldn't penetrate his skull !
    The worst thing was he was proved wrong......and then survived ! 8O
  13. Cutaway

    Cutaway LE Reviewer

    It was in 1688 I believe, the Royal Mint had some coins struck commemorating the tri-centenary of all the rights - spookily enough in the same year the '88 Amendment Act came into being......
    My recollection of the Bill may be a little hazy, but I do remember that there was a very deliberate order to the various rights.
    The right to free speech came before the right to free elections but both were far behind the right to carry 'a sword and pistol.'

    They knew what they were on about even back then.
  14. :(

  15. RTFQ


    There are plenty of arguments, backed up by valid statistics, that support a right to bear. I don't think anyone here has a problem with decent, straight thinking and sensible people having the right to defend themselves commensurate with the threat. We as a society have moved on since the turn of the century however, I'm going to avoid going into rant mode but here's a couple of illustrations to my point.

    Your local town-centre Chavs drinking white lightning and carrying a couple of 9mm pistols.

    An 80 year widower, sickened at the way things are going in this country, gets a brick through his window. Frustrated at his constant victimisation, his poverty and the utter impotence thrust upon him by state, society and age, he snaps, he unloads a 45 into the fleeing group of yobs. The oldest yob is 13.

    Community members from both sides in Burnley, Oldham, Leeds or Bradford with semi automatic rifles in the cupboard under the stairs.

    The kid who turned up to my sister's school last week with two claw hammers because he "wanted to kill" a fellow pupil manages instead to get hold of a couple of revolvers. Even without a reload that's 12 very unhappy kids.

    Watch Trisha, spend wednesay night down Mecca Bingo when it's two for one night, spend thursday and friday nights in a hogshead or yates in any city in this country. How many of those people would you want to see armed?

    Personally, I think there is a need to further arm the police. When making that argument I try to forget the state of the younger members of our Police Forces with which I have worked - because to be honest, I wouldn't let those fcukers loose with a leatherman.

    Yes, as an ideal, it would be great to be able to protect our loved ones from the scroats that may or may not come into our lives to take what they have no right to take.
    It is a greater ideal to have a government and police force willing and capable of protecting us.