Promotion through military training wing

Discussion in 'Int Corps' started by whenwherehowwhowhy?, Mar 10, 2007.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Do the courses down at Chicksands have any relevance to our role?
    They sure are scaring people! The thought of Brecon seems to make some think that the mess is not really worth going for at the moment. The failure rate appears to be large.
    Are the infantry staff there just beasting people for the fun of it, or is it actually useful?
    Are we putting needed recruits up for backsquadding after all the trade training for a purpose? Or is it to our benefit? Other Corps don't do it to the same extent.
    Anybody know anything about the new down-graded course? Will the Mil training staff get their hands on them as well?
  2. Bloody Hell it's only 3 weeks and not that hard to pass. Last time I checked the only criteria for not getting booted off the course was passing a CFT. Yet people still struggle with this, despite the fact their CO signs a bit of paper saying they are capable of passing one.

    The horrible wet Welsh bit is only a week. If nothing else, the quality of food and price of beer makes mess membership well worth it! ;)
  3. WTF :pissedoff:

    What a load of sh1te.

    The cadres are there for a reason, the skills taught are an ARMY requirement for the Rank. The corps havent made it up for fun!! The courses are not hard FFS, there are too many whingers and whiners who want the "perks" but feel they should have it simply because they "deserve" it. Nonsense - get on the course, work hard, prove you meet the standard and pass its that simple.
  4. oh dear
    It would appear that this debate will quickly die on its arse. The point I was trying to make is simple, are we getting what we need from the Mil phase's.

    Some People are not ready for the cse BECAUSE they have been on op's. They are then going on to a cse to prepare them for op's and saying they have not done anything like it since recruit training.
    You can post as many replies as you like, along the lines of "im strong and your all weak", but even the CRSM had to bring it up on the WO's forum that a lot of people are not prepared for the cse AND THEY HAVE BEEN ON OP'S!

    If its the right cse to run, im happy. If its not, what can we do better? Im sure I will get lots more insults from members of our Corps whom on a daily basis in Iraq, give complete sets of formal orders, then go out with bayonets in their teeth on section attacks. Such is life in the Corps!

    Some others may like to add what they thought of what they have done and what they need. Do the staff have an Infantry bias and would it be better to use Corps instructors who know what will be useful?

    They are alot of things to ponder, but im sure I will just be refered to as a crow again, as its easier to do.

  5. Right ill try again.

    To reiterate. The military courses are an ARMY requirement. To be a JNCO, SNCO etc there are a number of things that you have to be able to do - Proficiency in basic military skills is one of them. The Cadres ensure this requirement is met.

    The excuse of ive been on ops is a bit thin on the ground. Are there no PT facilities in theatres then? Time to go to the gym may in some cases be short - though from my experience time is there - people would, however, prefer not to. And if the bloke in the section who makes time to go can - then so can everyone else. Secondly, how much notice do you think you should have before attending a course where the standard to continue is a mandatory Army requirement - ie the BFT and CFT. 6 months? 6 weeks?

    Your attempt at sarcasm is noted. The orders process is just part of the package, and BTW you will find chaps preparing orders for moves and operations, attending orders for operations on the ground where they will also be, as has been highlighted and raised in other forums by the CRSM etc. - Infact IIRC he instigated a number of training packages in his previous post before being CRSM to ensure that the corps, when deploying were able and prepared to react to situations that were occuring on the ground!!!

    The corps are no longer confined to NI, we are just as at risk as other corps, you only need to refer to the emails from Major Swift which states *"The contact on 20 Aug proves once again the old lesson, that all arms and services must be fit and capable of basic weapon skills and fieldcraft."

    The courses are fit for purpose, they have as far as i am aware, all now been evaluated by the team at quicksands, and have been altered to provide what is required.

    Correct me if am wrong here, but - we teach the infantry at various wings in chicksands because we are the SMEs and they therefore should teach us where they are the SMEs..

    In my experience the courses run by mil training are now fit for purpose, ill quite happily go into detail over the finite parts if you wish - but you seem content to say they are flawed, - what is your experience of Mil trg wing to qualify your opinion?

    Open to sensible and informed debate - over to you...

  6. my first thought on reading this thread was that "whenwherehowwhowhy" is perhaps not a crow, but a senior person asking this question to fathom opinion. but on the assumption it's gen, i'll answer it straight.

    you're in the army and you have to ask this? "soldiers first" ring a bell?

    not on a daily basis. but i can put you in touch with people in the corps who have had lots of recent experience in "two way ranges". we have lost three members of the corps on ops in the last two years, and many others killed in theatre have not been infanteers - look how many 14 sigs alone have lost.

    do you really think nobody would be prepared to debate this point with you? there is no need to simply resort to calling you a crow (i don't know if you are or not). quite frankly, it doesn't matter if you're a sprog or an old sweat: your flippant and ignorant comments show a distinct lack of understanding and maturity either way.

    is the course designed to prepare you for ops? or is that what OPTAG / pre-deployment training etc are for? is this course not designed to teach you more generic military skills that you ought to know as your army career progresses? oh hang on - how many are failing the course for poor skills & drills? is it not fitness / injury which is the main cause of failure? how many are being sent straight on the course on their return from ops - i.e. without 4/5 weeks off on POTL and decompression, during which they could pull out the trainers and get running again? i don't know the situation out in afghanistan, but i'm sure one could keep fit in most jobs in iraq. (*swing lamp* it's not like the old mirkonjic grad early days, where we had to run round the inside of a 20m x 10m room, as there was nowhere safe to run outside.)

    you might not see the immediate relevance of much of what is taught. if you genuinely think that you don't need to know the orders process because you can't envisage yourself using it in the next few months... then you need to wake up. there are many different things one can branch off into in the corps (and outside). you might find yourself wishing you had paid more attention when being taught some of these skills.

    another aspect to consider is credibility. get yourself attached to an infantry unit for any length of time and you will realise just how important this is. can't stress it enough.

    you could almost make the case that your comments are better aimed towards your current unit? if you've done no continuation training since leaving training, what job are you currently in? ops is ops - it's busy. hardly the time to be teaching you basic military skills.

    i find it amazing that some juniors moan about doing military skills courses / D&D / cadre / whatever it's called nowadays, especially when you consider that a) every one of your seniors have already done them and b) in my experience, simple basic military skills are generally weaker at the bottom end of the chain. there are exceptions, but i have been appalled at the number of JNCOs in the Corps who struggle to pass a simple APWT (let alone get marksman). it's no use being fit and good at your day job, if you can't even hit a target with your personal weapon as a soldier. after "putting on uniform", surely shooting is the most fundamental skill for a soldier?

    controversial opinion here - perhaps this is a reflection of the relative softening of basic training and lowering of standards over the last 15 years? how many actually fail it these days? we used to have people dropping out / being binned left, right and chelsea. was your basic training hard? was it selective?

    i re-iterate green-machine's point, made by those on the ground who know:

    sensible people learn from the experience of others. we have guys volunteering to go out and do the job because it is needed. will you be holding back, saying "it's not my job, i'm in the intelligence corps"? this has happened in both iraq and afghanistan - int corps juniors voluntarily stepping up, putting themselves in harms way and helping out where required, even if not trained to the same standard as the professional infanteers.

    you're a soldier for fucks sake. this is what we do. all of us.
  7. I'm of the same mind as CR, whenwherehowwhowhy? may not be all that he/she appears to be.

    The D&D2 (lets not piss about calling it anything other than that) is a mandatory element of gaining your third banana.

    It is not to prepare you for Ops, that is what Optag. PDT and the CT training are there for.

    Its 3 weeks FFS. When I did it it was a BFT, CFT Stretcher race and passing in tests (for which you could and were RTU'd). Move to Sennybridge and do a night nav, assault cse, and 5-6 day exercise. Move back to Chickers and do some drill, have an 'introduction to the mess' (mess dinner), disperse. There were 10 pax on the cse. It was hard, but thoroughly enjoyable, and to be honest I have not looked back. It was perfectly aimed, testing and teaching and I feel that it has stood me well in beinf able to deal with other Arms and Services.

    I also feel that it should remain testing and teaching. This is the last time that the Corps is able to actually see what SNCO's are coming through. The SM&D has changed with the times (another debate). If people are whinging about the cse before they have even been on it, there is someting drastically wrong with their attitude. Life as a SNCO only gets harder the further you go, thats why you have the responsibilty and lets be honest, the pop star wages.

    Do not confuse this with "I've done the cse, everyone should suffer". I really do believe that you should have to shine on this element of your career courses path. The Corps is looking at you, and in some respects the Corps name on Ops rests on this course.
  8. Hear hear CR and H'Man I agree - the Mil phases of all courses are not long enough nor are they hard enough - additionally units get very little time to build on it..............
  9. CR& H'Man. Whilst its a moot point i dont think the individual whenwherehowwhowhy? is in a well informed position, or failing that has a much experience - Devils advocate aside. There are too many poor points and lack of experience seems apparent.

    That aside, WWHHW - you have a few opinions - all experienced based whom firmly support the current courses, some more eloquent than mine -CR-

    So you want a debate - whats your opinion then WWHHW? care to enlighten us?
  10. This is not a new issue. I well remember the late 70's and early 80's when Repton was beginning to prove its worth and the Corps reputation in NI was growing apace. The debate then was that the D and D courses were too hard and just a "selection" course for Repton. I remeber the great feeling of satisfaction and well being when I passed. When .... Why might want to reflect on that aspect. It is a challenge, rise up to it, you dont know how good you will feel when its all over. Then, you may be in a position to motivate those coming along after you who will want to draw on your experience and will be looking at the example that you set. . Are you going to use the same arguments with them as you did in your original post. I hope not, you won't last long in the mess if you do.
  11. I never thought of the course as scary, but I was glad as fuck when I passed it. Looking back, all that was required was a CFT pass, passing-in test passes (re-sits allowed) and passing your Comd Appointment in the field (not hard as I'm living proof of, although some people needed 2 goes as memory serves). You didn't even need to get a green on the BPFA! Although I'd guess now it's a test this has changed.

    The DS made the point that as long as you passed the the passing-in tests and CFT, then they'd coach you as much as needed in order to achieve your pass. They weren't expecting senior brecon candidates.

    This does however raise the age old arguement of the delineation between military skills and trade skills. In our war role the 2 meet, in the training environment they do not.

    Green machine mentioned other capbadges having longer courses, this is because they combine the standard military bits alongside what they do in the field. The have exercises were they live in the field and carry out their role, not just ones purely doing section attacks.

    I'm Kent Brockman and this is my 2 cents...........
  12. I'm sure you'd be able to answer your own questions if you'd spent a couple of weeks at Musa Qala.
  13. I have to agree with CR on this issue. The cadre course does have its value not just with regards to the emphasis on military tactical skills but rather as a 'right of passage' from the Junior to the Senior ranks that comes with succesful completion of it. Basically once you pass it your self confidence takes a boost.
  14. I'll echo the sentiments that some of our Seniors have already posted.

    The D&D is a Military requirement NOT a Corps one.

    We are all meant to be Soldiers first. As such, there is a requirement for us to be taught and tested in certain Green Army skills like Orders etc.

    How badly do people want to be SNCOs? 3 weeks graft is not a lot to ask of someone with the right mindset. "shutup, learn, get on with it"
  15. The ethos, as explained to our DnD many moons ago by the legendary vertically challenged Trg Wing Sgt Major B** C***** was that with siginters, huminters, sy sect pers and all the other oddities that the Corps posessed, a military course was the only fair way of assessing suitability for assuming the responsibilities of a SNCO. You can take the "Soldier First" claim as you want it, but our course did what it said on the tin-tested and assessed. It also sharpened up the skills of those who had been out of that side of things for a while which can be no bad thing. It was also great fun.