Promotion of Seniors with Introduction of VENG

#1
Not sure if been discussed but reasonably hot off the press.

After reading through the latest changes to current promotion rules I think that the powers above have done a good job to try and deal with the issues of VENG.
The main changes Ive seen on non tech trades are that Sgts still have to do 15 years service but have to do 3 years sub rank (rather than 2) for promotion to SSGT.

Tiffies have to do 4 years in sub rank allowing them to do a minimum of two complete tours. This I totally agree with as it then makes sure that they are fully ready and showed their worth at two different units before getting their badge.

Also good to see that Artisan WO2 can now get their WO1 after 2 years in the rank.

On the whole most of the changes mean an additional year in rank before being eligable for promotion (unless your an old bloke like me) I think its a good thing but whats the view of the mass?

Hope there can be a sensible discussion with peoples views on here and throw it over to okimato for a starter for ten.
 
#2
The_IRON said:
Tiffies have to do 4 years in sub rank allowing them to do a minimum of two complete tours. This I totally agree with as it then makes sure that they are fully ready and showed their worth at two different units before getting their badge.
Nothing new here really, the time in rank has varied over the years in order to try and provide some stability/fairness it was 4 yrs when I came through that juncture. Personally I've always favoured time in the rank over time served. The first means adequate experience, the second that you just stuck around long enough!

The crux is when are they boarded. If 4 years before a board then in reality they'll end up doing a 2 yr and a 2.5 to 3 yr tour. If it's 4 years before actual promotion then no problem, they can be selected and move on acting promotion somewhere between 3.5 and 4 yrs.
 
#4
oldfart said:
The_IRON said:
The crux is when are they boarded. If 4 years before a board then in reality they'll end up doing a 2 yr and a 2.5 to 3 yr tour. If it's 4 years before actual promotion then no problem, they can be selected and move on acting promotion somewhere between 3.5 and 4 yrs.
Guys can wait 4 years and 1 day (scrolled 30th May) or 4 and 364 (scrolled
01 Apr) thats one of the big gripes. Cellar Dweller and Blue Jobs finish around that date, they end up waiting nearly four years just to board right now as it is.
As arrse90 said funny how with dates like Jul/Aug/Sep knocking around the documents that started this off how the WO1s slipped through.
Stabbed in the back.
 
#5
Decision made in October by the command group however kept under wraps for a whole month with everyone in denial!! You cant demand respect it needs to be earned!! Has the Corps just ripped its own heart out???
 
#6
Guys can wait 4 years and 1 day (scrolled 30th May) or 4 and 364 (scrolled
01 Apr) thats one of the big gripes. Cellar Dweller and Blue Jobs finish around that date, they end up waiting nearly four years just to board right now as it is.
Right so no real issue then if it's 4 years to substantive promotion there's nothing to stop the exceptional picking up an acting promotion as soon as the board's sat (or even before if it's their current CO that wants them in the rank). Let's be honest these a few and far between.

You also seem to be working to two very strange assumptions:

1. That everybody will gain the appropriate CR recommendations to appear on the board.

2. That everybody will pass the board.

Neither of these is true so the effect is not a solid barrier to promotion but a slip to the right for the "average" tiffy, the exceptionals will still get promoted early the not so good a little later sure the very late may miss out altogether and whilst I don't know the individuals you refer to and therefore am not commenting on their cases in anyway, if you're a twenty year tiffy are you suitable for WO rank?

Perhaps the net effect will be an overall increase in the quality of WO?

In fact having re-read your post and a couple of others it sounds as though you think of promotion as a contractual condition of going tiffy.
 
#7
In agreeance with oldfart.

Really think the issue is the timing and manner that the information was leaked! If it had affected the wo2-wo1 board then fair enough!! in that case it would affect ALL ranks from top to bottom!! Which is surely what vacancy promotion is all about!!
 
#8
oldfart said:
Perhaps the net effect will be an overall increase in the quality of WO?
Thats an interesting thing to say Oldfart. I wasn't aware that there was a problem with the current set of WOs. If there is could you elaborate (Im not baiting - just genuinely interested and able to take criticism).

Whilst I think that there is a lot of pointless bleating on here, and Im mainly looking at those that will still have the chance to become WO1, it does beg the question as to why the communication of information is so poor within our supposedly technical Corps. I heard about this first on here despite being a Bn ASM and attending the DEME(A) WOs conference. Its a let down for the masses & I wonder if the Officer Corps can look inward and address the fact?

I do agree with your posts about people believing that by going on the board that they are immediately going to pick up. I took 3 promotion boards to get my WO2 (a combination of a poor report (which the OC later apologised for) and time served) but it allowed me to complete two very different postings. I believe that I was much better prepared for life as a WO after this time and I am now much more employable and aware of the "bigger picture". Some are undoubtedly disadvantaged and I feel for the guys that wont get the chance to be an ASM however the others should turn to the right, pick their chins up (after a beer and a bitch to the wife) and work out how they can turn this to their advantage.
 
#9
sparky8 said:
oldfart said:
Perhaps the net effect will be an overall increase in the quality of WO?
Thats an interesting thing to say Oldfart. I wasn't aware that there was a problem with the current set of WOs.
Absolutely not! Nothing of the sort intented.

No intent of starting a ruck either but logically if the line moves to the right the pass performance scores will inevitably rise hence an net increase in quality. Personally I'd prefer to see a horizontal line where the criteria is based solely on performance and not time in rank (subject to an obvious minimum). On purely mathematical analysis the sloping line can only imply that experience compensates for lack of performance. It's not a perfect system but subject to a few tweaks it's served well enough for the past 67 years.

To the best of my knowledge there are very few WO posts allowed to sit vacant for any length of time hence the opportunity for flyers to pick up an acting promotion.
 
#10
Seems to be the older members of the Corps who are feeling the pinch here.....

Probably the same Tiffies who never bothered their backside to get a Commander ES interview, but then when the application was just to hand in a form..they suddenly got out the brew room and 'gave it a go'...

It slowed up us young folk who actually wanted to jump through the origional hoops at the time....Karma

Not saying thats every one here but if you wern't bothered before it was easy to do, then you deserve the extra year... :D
 
#11
Poncho, isn't the first rule of comparisons within the army to say that 'it was harder in my day' not admit it's easier :D

My opinion is that the 2 engagements should be run seperately, if on VEng then accept an extra year before boarding for WO2 and then WO1, if not on VEng then you should board. It has to be absorbed somewhere and
If the 2 years were absorbed at the Cpl and Sgt boards then a lot more soldiers would be affected.

I don't expect the current LE rules for WO2 to stay at 19yrs either, my money is on that moving 2yrs to the right as well to align with the 24 yr career. If there are plans for that happening the corps should make sure that people don't hear about it on ARRSE instead of through the CofC
 
#12
oldfart said:
sparky8 said:
oldfart said:
Perhaps the net effect will be an overall increase in the quality of WO?
To the best of my knowledge there are very few WO posts allowed to sit vacant for any length of time hence the opportunity for flyers to pick up an acting promotion.
There won't be any flyers! As for picking up on acting promotion, would this be granted without the said person coming off a promotion board?
 
#13
For me I was looking forward to going to the board.
Now the new rules have prevented that.
SJAR written.
Looking at the goals,
about to take the shot,
s**t goalposts have moved,
sorry to inform you,
you are not going to the board.
Give me that lottery ticket back, I am going to burn it.

Just when I thought nothing could supprise me in the corp.

I am sure I am not the only one out there.

To quote annex b "the increase will not be felt", trust me I felt it.
I now await all the "get your chin up remarks"
 
#14
The_IRON said:
On the whole most of the changes mean an additional year in rank before being eligable for promotion (unless your an old bloke like me)

By 'being and old bloke like me' do you mean you have served the time in rank required for the board or that the new rules do not apply to you?

One of the guys I work with is a VE SGT with 2 1/2 years left and has just done 2 years in rank. He has been told that he will not be on the board in March as he has not done 3 years as a Sgt. This effectively means that by the time the next board sits and he has done the 3 years he will not be eligable due to the time he has left.

I just wonder how many others are out there that thought they may have had a chance on the board this year just to see it taken away from them?
 
#16
baldricksdad said:
As for picking up on acting promotion, would this be granted without the said person coming off a promotion board?
That's how I got mine. :wink: Along with the clear caveat that if I didn't successfully board next time around I could loose it.
 
#17
bohica said:
magictorch said:
The_IRON said:
I just wonder how many others are out there that thought they may have had a chance on the board this year just to see it taken away from them?
that's two of us. So there must be more. Others in the same boat, come on speak out.
The simple look at it is this.
1. Take a look at last years boards
2. Delete the guys that came off it
3. What you are left with is who will be boarding this year. (Unless you were a WO2-WO1 boarder :wink: )

So in short, another go for the people too pants to promote last year, but with no competition for them from the up and coming this year.

Simples!

Thank you for another year in Rank.Top 10% eh.
 
#18
magictorch said:
The_IRON said:
On the whole most of the changes mean an additional year in rank before being eligable for promotion (unless your an old bloke like me)

By 'being and old bloke like me' do you mean you have served the time in rank required for the board or that the new rules do not apply to you?One of the guys I work with is a VE SGT with 2 1/2 years left and has just done 2 years in rank. He has been told that he will not be on the board in March as he has not done 3 years as a Sgt. This effectively means that by the time the next board sits and he has done the 3 years he will not be eligable due to the time he has left.

I just wonder how many others are out there that thought they may have had a chance on the board this year just to see it taken away from them?

No Ive gone past my sell by date and reached my ceiling and doing additional time on continuance so not eligable for promotion any more. Not bitter about it I made my choice a long time when I never went tiffy, I suppose Im one of the ones who have thrown the spanner in the works and just cant say good bye to the REME or the Army, however I do agree with these changes and believe that the minimum terms in Rank before being eligable for promotion are about right now.
 
#19
I'm in same boat.

With 2 1/2 yrs left, and originally looking at my 1st shot at WO1 in Nov 10, and still not been offered VEng (Feb 2010), I can now wave goodbye to the big badge job. By the time I would be eligible I would have insufficient residual service left.

So to quote Annex C, ' this won't be felt', I certainly felt it, like the scene in Bruce Almighty when a Macaque Monkey tore out of that guy's arr3e.

'Bridging the gap between Open/Notice Engagement and VEng'?, well the bridge may have been discussed, but it washed away like the poor folk's of Workington's did, and no amount of Royal Engineers working 24/7 will fix this one!!
 

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