Discussion in 'Reports & Promotion' started by ducebigalo, Feb 2, 2007.

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  1. What's going on? Roumours are abash that "other" corps are putting people forward for promotion boards in their last year and two years.

    Are we behind the curve on this one especially as we have adopted the new VEng. Which although a very senior Col gave a good speech and explantion on recently no one has seen any proof!!! Indeed recent research proves fruitless!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :frustrated:

    I smell a rat........

    Can you confirm or deny?
  2. Duce,

    I believe you are right, I am aware that there is a letter from AG regarding residual service and promotion, and believe that this came from the CGS briefing notes.

    Regarding the VEng, there have been some briefing notes which have been released from DEME(A), they are subject to confirmation and therefore change, however the basics are:

    Offer To Transfer (OTT) to VEng will be made to all soldiers having served between 3 and 21 years service as at 01 Jan 08.

    A briefing pack will be issued during 2007 for delivery through the CoC to REME soldiers. An OTT applicable to transfer to a Full Career (24 years) only, will be included in the pack. Further updates will be provided through briefing notes to the CoC and articles in Craftsman as the situation develops.

    From what I have found talking to some of the guys, it seems as though most people don't seem interested in serving another two years, especially if it means more tours of hot countries!
  3. Thanks canada bob, thought the herbal tea was making me hallucinate.
  4. Can I join REME!!??
  5. The RE and other Corps regularly put people up for promotion within their last two years, especially WO2 to WO1. The note I saw recently said that one years Residual Service is now required on promotion (a reduction from two years). This change is meant to make more personnel elegible for promotion. However I have also found that the RE MCM Div board personnel so long as they are serving on the first day of the promotion year.

    Outstanding - No need to join REME stick with RE.
  6. We have done this for WO2 to WO1 for ages too.
    Which isnt exactly fair now is it on all the other folk that want a better pension by one Rank on leaving.
    Jobs for the Boys methinks.
    As for serving any longer. CDT will catch up with you.
    Smoking crack and service life is not compatible.
    Two years = two tours in the REMEs in this day and age. Feck that right off.
  7. Duce, Canada Bob,

    Lets be careful here. Facts:

    Nothing yet finally decided on VEng. The Army Board and DEME(A) have not confirmed things yet and expect no confirmation before Summer 07. Even the date of 1 Jan 08 could slip! This may happen, that may happen etc etc ... we have no facts yet. If you read what's been written the words may and likely are key. The Army Board is due to sign up to VEng on 31 May 07 - the current proposals being staffed now (and being advertised) may change a little over the coming months.

    I have it on good authority that there may be a need to filter out a few of those on open engagement and not offer conversion to VEng Stage 2 (= extra 2 years) e.g those who don't have long to go (those who reach their 22 year point before 2009, non-deployables, perhaps not Artisan WO2s (would block promotion for SSgts), perhaps not VEs, welfare cases, dross etc. There could well be a board to filter a few folks out. I also suspect guys may not get the offer to transfer before they are Class 1

    Residual Service,

    If there is not enough fully qualified guys to fill the upcoming vacancies in a particular rank and trade, REME has always then offered promotion to guys in their last 2 years. It happen to a load of Art Veh & Art Av WO2s on the Nov 06 Board. It regularly happens for Rec Mechs & Tech Stmn at the top end too. However if your trade is not in that position (lots of runners fully qualified for a few slots) then you won't have a chance.

    As of Nov 07 WO1 Board the residual service rule goes down to 1 year as of the start of the promotion year. Combine this with VEng (2 years more service) and many souls who get extended onto VEng Stage 2 may get extra shouts at promotion over the next few years.

    However if you can't get to the top within 20 years anyway........ are we rewarding mediocrity??

    Its amazing what you find out as an RCMO and by attending MCM Div Roardshows innit!

    Ask me a hard one
  8. Okimato,
    Do you have any information on the implications of serving a further 2 years (under VEng) on the current pension scheme? Thanks...
  9. pot-aussie,

    It would be just like serving on continuance as far as I am aware. You would just get more pension increments - but don't quote me as I'm not 100% on the exact details. Your pay office should be able to confirm this.
  10. No, you're far too sensible!

  11. Exactly. If you are on the old scheme, the tables will show you the additional amount. If you are on the new scheme, use the calculation in the wonderful colour brochure!

    Hint: 2 years on top of 22 years is about a 9% uplift.

  12. Okimato,

    You are quite right, as I stated in my reply, that the briefing notes have been released and are subject to confirmation and therefore change! The shame is that as a Corps we are crap at distributing information around the guys on the shop floor. Information is released from the top and depending on what Div, Bde, Garrison or Unit you are in depends on if you get to know the information, and that all depends on the person that you have in the posts that matter (BEME, RCMO, OC etc.) Currently I am in a position that I get to see almost everything, or have colleagues who pass me the news, and I return the favour by passing it on.

    About the MCM roadshow, to be honest they are almost becoming a complete waste of time and money. Many years ago they had a place, but in this modern era of the internet, websites, forums, emails etc. why is the Corps wasting its time in travelling the road, speaking on send and not really listening to what the troops have to say (if they have managed to get to visit the event). Have they ever held an MCM roadshow in Iraq or Stan? If they did, they would have a captive audience! Sorry I forgot it gives some of the dinosaurs from Glasgow the chance to stock up on their duty frees?

    I would agree that you should be able to reach the top in 20 years, and it has been made even easier by the fact that we have a 1 day PAAB, selected for promotion before being educated and a block on promotion within the last 2 years (to be changed?). The fact that a young Tiffy can become a WO2 after 3 years and ASM 2 years later may cause some problems for the Corps later. Maybe we could learn some tips from other Corps including the RE who seem to have a much more robust type of promotion system including the WO2, SSM and Senior selection boards!

    Regarding the RE, they have selected quite a few WO2s for promotion in their last year, there were two in my current unit, both of who took the opportunity. At the same time there was another who turned his senior selection down to get a life in Civvy Street, and from what I hear, he is not the only one! One point about the RE system and their MCM Div, at least they publish everything for all to see on MS Web and ArmyNet unlike our good old ship in Glasgow.

    With over 20 year’s service, I would like to think that I have an experienced World-View and able to compose an argument of what is right and wrong with the systems within our organisation. I have an open door policy with everybody, and when I receive information that I believe will benefit the troops, I pass it on. If I was lucky enough to have access to a REME RCMO, I would not expect him to say “Ask me a hard one” I would expect him to brief the guys when information is released, so that nobody need to ask any questions! Maybe some people who are ‘in the know’ are scared of passing on information in case there is an intelligent soldier who may delve deeper and make a choice, knowledge can be dangerous!
  13. Canada Bob,

    Some good points, well made. However I must defend Records on some issues here, given my regular dealings with them, esp as I've asked some of the same questions as you:

    [/marq]They would love to give roadshows on ops but staff clearance rules and budgets prevent it.

    [/marq]They are not always on send in my view, I have seen the queues of soldiers getting one to one interviews after presentations and being given pretty honest answers. Unfortunately for some the truth hurts.

    [/marq]Many of the Dinosaurs aren't. Most of the serving offrs (& the WO2) have been on ops such as TELIC recently and have spent most of their previous and recent service in the field force. They are a very easy target to knock but I believe they do a good job - nobody is perfect. The ROs have a thankless task with everyone questioning every decision - all for £22K per year. OK - can I have a posting to BATUS now?

    [/marq]Lots of info is passed out to soldiers. On ArmyNet there are the promotion board results and an MCM Div Forum - not many other MCMs have such a forum and you get answers from the SO1 & SO2 in person.

    [/marq]Their frequent Craftsman Colour Supplements are pretty useful and designed to get the message straight to the troops - I find them useful anyway!!

    [/marq]Having visited Records on many occasions I am heartened by how much time they take (doing a thankless job) to do the right thing. They cannot please everybody. They are far better than most of the other MCM Divs - trust me!

    What is it about the RE system that is better? - grateful for the "best practice" to be revealed. You could suggest this via a DEME(A) challenge as it is HQ DEME(A) that makes the promotion rules not Glasgow. Soldiers only get promoted if recommended - perhaps its OCs to blame for not having the moral courage to give non-recommendations - if you don't get a Y you cannot promote!!

    What do RE MCM publish on MS Web and ArmyNet that REME MCM Div doesn't? Let me know and I will ask for this to change when I next visit (Mar 07)

    Re your final para - In my view much depends on having an OC who takes the time to brief his troops, get to know them and manage their careers. Most of the knowledge you note is passed down to unit level. I think the Corps/Army still tends to get it better than firms in Civvy Street - opinions anyone who is ex forces??
  14. As it happens, an Army Briefing Note has just hit the streets which confirms that the policy will change from Nov 07 - which means that CRs written this year must be written with the changes in mind.

    Quote on/

    “To be considered for substantive promotion in a given promotion year, a soldier must have a minimum of 12 months of residual service prior to their normal run out date, calculated from the start of that promotion year. If selected for promotion, they will be required to serve for a minimum of 2 years in the higher rank, calculated from the day of taking up their new appointment . If they have less than 24 months of residual service from the day of taking up their new appointment, they will be required to extend their service by the period needed to make up the difference. The necessary period of continuance will be granted to achieve this .”

    6. The first promotion board for which we can ensure parity of treatment for all potential candidates under the new RS Rule is the WO2-WO1 promotion board to be held in Nov 07. This board will select WOs2 for promotion to WO1 in 2008/09. The new Rule will then be applied to all subsequent promotion boards at each rank. Board dates are available on MS Web. With immediate effect, Reporting Officers must identify soldiers who, as a result of the new RS Rule, remain eligible for grading at promotion boards from the Nov 07 WO2-WO1 Board onwards, ensuring appropriate reports are raised on time and that mid-period appraisals are conducted with this in mind.

    Quote off/

  15. Okimato,

    Good defence, however we have all heard and have our own horror stories of ‘Aunty Records’.

    You mentioned the staff clearance for giving roadshows on Ops, and budgets prevents it. The last time I went to a roadshow it was delivered by a Major, alone. Low cost and easily available to travel. I was also one of those soldiers who queued up for a one on one interview, my questions were not answered and later used this fact to show that my career had not really been managed.

    I think everybody knows whom i meant regarding the dinosaurs, and a large cheer is heard around the world when they retire! Their job description on the MS Web site is clear; however I don’t belive that they achieve it with every case. Over the years I have spoken to the AO’s who I believe that do a good job, in fact at least 3 of them have said to me that they prefer not to involve the RO’s as everything works smoother, they also say not to tell them they said that! One particular RO has a reputation that was excused by an RCMO as ‘He is like that with everybody’ does that mean he gives a poor service to everyone? Does it mean it is right he is like that?

    ArmyNet is very good, in fact it is very much under utilised by the soldiers, what really should be happening is this forum should be part of the REME Forums, on top of the 2 that are already there. (MCM & NI?). The Corps need to invest more in getting some feedback through the Army system. The MCM forum is very good, I agree that there are not many, the answers do come from the top, but is it really needed? As I have said before, it is the job of the OCs to manage the troops at shop floor level, or if you are lucky (or not) to have access to an RCMO, then through them. Would you go and ask the RSM a question about duties before asking the Sergeant Major?

    Colour supplements in the Craftsman magazine are good, but again these could also be placed on ArmyNet for access by everybody wherever you are, they could even be emailed to the troops to make sure there is no excuse for not knowing!

    I see that you say that our MCM is better than others are, and maybe you have dealt with them, but from the perspective of serving attached and having other capbadges dealing with our very own, they seem to bang their heads against walls waiting for answers. Who knows who have the best MCM, do they have any figures to work out who gives the best service? Surely having a WO2 Tiffy post up there, the place must have a plethora of Charts, Graphs and figures plastered over the walls?

    Having served with the RE twice, I believe that their system of promotion and posting is more geared to placing them in posts to give them a good career profile. I can quote examples of careers within the REME which I believe do not make sense:

    1. A Cpl going on a Tiffy course then posted back to the same unit at the end, doing a 3 year post then being selected for WO2.

    2. A Tiffy going to their 2nd tour as a SSgt, picking up their WO2 after 1 year, then leaving after being selected for WO1, all within 3 years.

    3. Although I believe that Catterick is one of the most requested posting, many soldiers seem to spend their careers at every unit, although I am led to believe that 2 tours UK, 1 tour overseas is the norm!

    4. The DPA/DLO syndrome, once they are posted in the majority have to dragged out 5 years later, and then they try to get back after their next post. Give someone else a chance!!!

    When a soldier reaches the dizzy heights of SNCO, and the board results are released some soldiers get their posting immediately (done deal through MCM before?) while others are waiting, extended, cancelled etc. For the Tiffies, why don’t the successful applicants put in their choices and leave the rest to MCM. We have all heard that there is ‘High Profile’ and singleton posts; well send them the best soldiers to to get the best results for the unit. The RE go through the process of WO2 selection, SSM selection then Senior selection, the (supposedly) best then reach the top.

    I would probably agree that the Army get it better than Civvy life, however a good OC is hard to find, a Good ASM may be easier to find, but both in the same place is impossible. It is the responsibility of the OCs to command (manage) their troops, CRs are overgraded, but worse still some actually write them to the letter of MS guide, which are put into the pot with the overgraded ones! A CR gives very little information for the average soldier these days, and the comment about ‘not being able to put everything in’ leaves the soldier at the creative writing skills of the initiating officer. Bring on the SJAR, it can’t be any worse, and may have the effect of the OCs having to get to know there troops even better.

    This emotive subject was started by someone asking about the VEng. Apologies’ to those who are not interest but debate feeds ideas which can create change, especially as there is an RCMO involved, and I know that DEME(A) keeps tabs so it may not be all bad.