Project Payne IBS

#1
I've got in my possession a packing list with the above title.
I'm probably well behind the times however...it has done away with the 'first line' (carried on you), 'second line' (carried in belt/assault order) and 'third line' (bergan) and replaced them with immediate 1-3 (osprey, belt and daysack) and support 1- 2 (bergan and black hold all, deployment bag? Per fire team.

It looks to be very Herrick centric, what I'm wondering is has it been taken up at all or was it allowed to die a death?
Has/is anyone used or using this system?


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#3
On the mobile to a mate at the moment, he finished Seniors today.....they wore Osprey!


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#4
It's fairly likely that this system will be in place in Brecon for a while as it was developed by a senior instructor there. It seems to be very reliant on a good (read better than normal) low level G4 chain so time will tell as to how it is taken up.
 
#5
Yea its a "fight light" policy. Rather than carting round every bit of shite in your webbing and daysack, the kit you carry is tailored to the op you are doing. I was on juniors when they first introduced it. In theory it is good however people didn't really know how to employ it in the kit checks etc so didn't get done rigidly.

We went with wet and warm kit (jumper/Norwegian) in webbing. If daysack carried only mission essential kit carried in there. No pouches on the side - stopped blokes filling them and carrying pointless crap.

This worked for the riflemen, however commanders were still heavy. It is good and ownership is put on the commander to carry out an estimate as to what kit to be carried/ dropped mission dependant.
 
#7
So is this SOP now at IBS and do you think the idea will spread beyond there??IE has it gone beyond being just a trial/concept??
 
#8
Can anyone PM me the IBS packing list? My unit's list is draconian to say the least. Obviously, everyone is moving into contingency blah, blah, blah...


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#9
Can anyone PM me the IBS packing list? My unit's list is draconian to say the least. Obviously, everyone is moving into contingency blah, blah, blah...
Call one of the Divs at IBS. They have a full powerpoint presentation explaining the logic, thinking and research behind it, and how to use it properly.

'Contingency' shouldn't be an excuse for the few (and they fcuking know who they are) to start packing belt kit with tat and start suggesting 'you should be able to live from your belt kit for 24 hours'... and by live mean full rat pack(s), spare laces, boot cleaning kit and wash kit, flask, etc, etc.

I look back at the sh1te carried in my '58 and shudder.

Basically, look at what you carry and why. Ensure your kit can easily be separated to allow you to reduce weight or swiftly increase kit as necessary.
 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#11
KM, if you have DII, it was available on the Army Knowledge Exchange site. There was a thread on it in the (old) forums, which should still be archived, and I think it may have been posted into the Battlebox as well.

Whether or not it is fully adopted (it should have a reasonable chance given that it's sponsored by IBS and is being used to train all Juniors and Seniors) it's a very welcome effort to address elements of the weight / mission command problem ourselves, rather than just waiting for Defence scientists to discover UltraLightium or for David Cameron to personally sign off on each patrol wearing light order instead of full Chobham armour.
 
#12
KM, if you have DII, it was available on the Army Knowledge Exchange site. There was a thread on it in the (old) forums, which should still be archived, and I think it may have been posted into the Battlebox as well.
Sadly not......Stuck at a Platoon TAC/ARC with no DII terminal after wainting 6 months to move for the DII team to fit terminals.....
 
#14
Finally got to read the Presenation and various notes on AKK and one thing struck me. It does sound, in some parts, very close to the way I was taught how G4 would work in the field in terms of the movement of personel kit forward and back as required. Including the grip left with the SQMS/CQMS from which clean clothing could be extracted by you and dirty clothing sent back for cleaning....wheel reinvented time I think....
 
#15
As said - it will work if the G4 link is working correctly.

If not the whole thing collapses.

The yanks have tried the fight light system with ALICE.

They no longer use it - and they have a better G4 chain!
 
#17
As said - it will work if the G4 link is working correctly.

If not the whole thing collapses.

The yanks have tried the fight light system with ALICE.

They no longer use it - and they have a better G4 chain!
This what get me. We managed G4 far better in both the Great War and WWII, with troops expecting hot food centrally cooked and brought to them, in the front line at least once a day wherever they were. Allied Troops carried far less ammo around than we do now yet rarely seem to have run out of Ammo. British Infantry ammo scaling started in WWII as 50 rounds for the rifle and 90 rounds for the LMG per man with 3,000 rounds carried on the Platoon track of which 750 rounds per gun was to be in magazines

Pam 4, Section IV 1942. http://www.weapons.org.uk/smallarmstraining/downloads/uk/01-04-42.pdf

Notice also that lovely expression. "Platoon Truck"

Pam 4 from 1942 lists on page
 
#18
The main issue I believe with the whole G4 problem is where we end up next.

Project Payne will work well if we continue to work from fixed locations where re supply and support is easy to maintain.
Some may argue though (myself included) that operating like this is though a major reason we have failed in Afghan.

Personally I foresee our next operational deployments being along the line of an intervention or support to a failing government, possibly along the lines of Op Palliser.

This may be all we are capable of for the near future anyway!
We have no ships!
We have limited (and ageing) aircraft!!
The 'light' vehicle fleet we have/had is old, aged and abused and the fleet we have inherited from Afghan is large and heavy - and designed for afghan based ops.
All we can forward mount is light role, quick reaction troops - taking with them what they can carry.
Bergan and belt kit, self sufficient for a period of time until a workable G4 chain can be established.

Project Payne does not take this into consideration.

The battle proven/winning elements have not changed greatly since the introduction of 1958 patt webbing. A water bottle weighs no more now than it did then. IW Ammo has become lighter and allows more to be carried. Ration packs are also now lighter.
Section, platoon and coy weapon systems have become lighter, the GPMG is now only fractionally lighter but the 5.56 LMG is lighter than the 7.62 (Bren converted) LMG.
Even at Bn levels the 81mm mortar is now lighter.
A soldier and his belt kit able to survive on the battle field is no different, so what has changed??
Where is this increase in wright from when we were winning wars??

Firstly the SA80 has got heavier since it introduction and is now heavier than the SLR and the lee Enfield!!
Helmets - now made of so called 'lightweight' plastics have got heavier.
Radios have got no lighter but have also become larger!! This in a age where the mobile phone has become smaller and smarter!!
Body armour (Osprey) has also become larger and heavier with no real evidence that it has saved more lives than the CBA/ECBA it replaced - as it has been designed to stop direct fire weapons but used in an environment where IEDs and the like were the biggest threat. It's weight, size and cumbersome shape forcing troops often to take the easy route or being fatigued quicker - making them more vulnerable to the real threat.

This is before we even touch ECM and it's general Mis deployment and use.

Though I think soldiers do carry too much - I think the thought that the individual carries too much in his belt kit is a mid conception.
The fact that most blokes day sacks are now the size of small bergans is the real issue added to the points above.

More training in field craft is what is required not more pressure on the G4 chain.
 
#19
The 1944 helmet, introduced in 1944 and worn by the British army till the mid 80's weighed about 4lbs. The Mk7 issued from 2009 weighs 2lbs 4oz, 1lb 1oz less than the Mk6. HMNVG are about a 1lb in weight I think so may push the weight of the helmet, when worn, back towards the 4lb mark.

Excessive ammo use has become an issue. I dread to think what my unit's kills to bullets rate was as we only managed 1 known hit in 2 months and blew away 20,000 rounds in mixed natures in one contact with no known enemy cas.

Watch that video again and time the shooter. I made 11 seconds to empty a 20 round magazine from the 7.62mm Sharpshooter rifle fitted with *6 scope for improved accuracy at greater ranges. WTF was that ? He might as well have stood up and fired a shotgun in the air. That shooter should have been hunting for targets and killing with one or two rounds not blasting rounds off like John Wayne.

If you see the presentation then you'll realise that more training in field-craft is pointless unless we can shift weight off the soldier's back if it's not needed there and then. Look at pictures from Brecon of infantry courses in the field and then look at pictures of British infantry in Normandy in 1944, one group are training for war, one group is in the middle of a high intensity conflict.

Let me mention a very old quote

"The fighting value of a soldier is in inverse proportion to the load he carries" this was written in 1922.

The known point at which weight carried degrades performance is 25Kgs, at 40Kgs that degradation is exponential, at a certain point the solder is just a pack mule, head down and plodding on. No matter what you do that soldier will not remain focused on anything other than plodding along. People are going to have stop carrying everything "Just in case" and expect that they may be cold and hungry. Commanders are going to have to stop coming up with packing lists that pretty much pick the whole of a solders 1157 and the whole of Platoon and Company stores and sling them on the back of some poor private soldier who weighs about 75-80kgs at best. Some people are going to have write orders that actually plan CSS, not just trot out the usual "as per SOP" crap.
 
#20
The BA learnt from the Falklands that accuracy with single shots will only go so far, it will not allow you to win the firefight.

Spray and prayer isn't the answer though


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