Prison suicides

#1
The Prison Reform Trust complaining about the 92 suicides in UK jails . If criminals didn't commit crimes they wouldn't be in jail and at least they are doing something to resolve prison overcrowding.
 
#3
OldTimer said:
The Prison Reform Trust complaining about the 92 suicides in UK jails
I'll drink to that! If anything we should be encouraging junkies and repeat offenders to off themselves.
 
#4
Only 92? Where are the other 8? Make it a good round number.

Cliche I know. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

And those 92 will definitely not reoffend.
 
#5

Legs

ADC
Book Reviewer
#6
How does that reflect the suicide rate in the general population? I'd like to see a comparison before getting all excited. However I'm far to lazy today to do any reasearch.
 
#7
It would be interesting to cross match these figures with MOD ones. At least one of those 92 was an ex Soldier with service in the Balkans and Telic and was being treated for PTSD. The chief of domestic staff at this location is currently looking into the increase of ex soldiers in the HMP system and has noted a considerable rise in the numbers of ex servicemen doing time compared to 10 years ago. A lot of these guys have 'health issues' and Alcohol/Drug issues which relate directly to the reason for their sentence. I wonder how many of these suicides if cross checked would throw up service backgrounds with operational service.
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#8
Baldrick66 said:
It would be interesting to cross match these figures with MOD ones. At least one of those 92 was an ex Soldier with service in the Balkans and Telic and was being treated for PTSD. The chief of domestic staff at this location is currently looking into the increase of ex soldiers in the HMP system and has noted a considerable rise in the numbers of ex servicemen doing time compared to 10 years ago. A lot of these guys have 'health issues' and Alcohol/Drug issues which relate directly to the reason for their sentence. I wonder how many of these suicides if cross checked would throw up service backgrounds with operational service.
Very, very well pointed out. Apart from the general prison population, useless, work-shy, gobshoit junkie/dealing organised crim scumbags who deserve to die painfully, there may indeed be quite a few ex-services bods, who have genuine problems, such as an ever increasing number of PTSD sufferers, who, considering their problems, should not have wound up in jail, but in places where they get the care and attention they should have had from the outset.
 
#9
Biped said:
Baldrick66 said:
It would be interesting to cross match these figures with MOD ones. At least one of those 92 was an ex Soldier with service in the Balkans and Telic and was being treated for PTSD. The chief of domestic staff at this location is currently looking into the increase of ex soldiers in the HMP system and has noted a considerable rise in the numbers of ex servicemen doing time compared to 10 years ago. A lot of these guys have 'health issues' and Alcohol/Drug issues which relate directly to the reason for their sentence. I wonder how many of these suicides if cross checked would throw up service backgrounds with operational service.
Very, very well pointed out. Apart from the general prison population, useless, work-shy, gobshoit junkie/dealing organised crim scumbags who deserve to die painfully, there may indeed be quite a few ex-services bods, who have genuine problems, such as an ever increasing number of PTSD sufferers, who, considering their problems, should not have wound up in jail, but in places where they get the care and attention they should have had from the outset.
So what about all those "useless, work-shy, gobshoit junkie/dealing organised crim scumbags who deserve to die painfully" who are suffering from PTSD from the beatings/rapes/general shitty life when they were kiddies then?
Do they get some care and attention or just a painful death?
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#11
Steven said:
Biped said:
Baldrick66 said:
It would be interesting to cross match these figures with MOD ones. At least one of those 92 was an ex Soldier with service in the Balkans and Telic and was being treated for PTSD. The chief of domestic staff at this location is currently looking into the increase of ex soldiers in the HMP system and has noted a considerable rise in the numbers of ex servicemen doing time compared to 10 years ago. A lot of these guys have 'health issues' and Alcohol/Drug issues which relate directly to the reason for their sentence. I wonder how many of these suicides if cross checked would throw up service backgrounds with operational service.
Very, very well pointed out. Apart from the general prison population, useless, work-shy, gobshoit junkie/dealing organised crim scumbags who deserve to die painfully, there may indeed be quite a few ex-services bods, who have genuine problems, such as an ever increasing number of PTSD sufferers, who, considering their problems, should not have wound up in jail, but in places where they get the care and attention they should have had from the outset.
So what about all those "useless, work-shy, gobshoit junkie/dealing organised crim scumbags who deserve to die painfully" who are suffering from PTSD from the beatings/rapes/general shitty life when they were kiddies then?
Do they get some care and attention or just a painful death?
No, just some valuable lessons in good parenting. I forgot that all prisoners and law-breakers are victims, and we should close prisons. Good point.
 
#12
Biped said:
Steven said:
Biped said:
Baldrick66 said:
It would be interesting to cross match these figures with MOD ones. At least one of those 92 was an ex Soldier with service in the Balkans and Telic and was being treated for PTSD. The chief of domestic staff at this location is currently looking into the increase of ex soldiers in the HMP system and has noted a considerable rise in the numbers of ex servicemen doing time compared to 10 years ago. A lot of these guys have 'health issues' and Alcohol/Drug issues which relate directly to the reason for their sentence. I wonder how many of these suicides if cross checked would throw up service backgrounds with operational service.
Very, very well pointed out. Apart from the general prison population, useless, work-shy, gobshoit junkie/dealing organised crim scumbags who deserve to die painfully, there may indeed be quite a few ex-services bods, who have genuine problems, such as an ever increasing number of PTSD sufferers, who, considering their problems, should not have wound up in jail, but in places where they get the care and attention they should have had from the outset.
So what about all those "useless, work-shy, gobshoit junkie/dealing organised crim scumbags who deserve to die painfully" who are suffering from PTSD from the beatings/rapes/general shitty life when they were kiddies then?
Do they get some care and attention or just a painful death?
No, just some valuable lessons in good parenting. I forgot that all prisoners and law-breakers are victims, and we should close prisons. Good point.
This is 2008 now you know, all that punishment and rehabilitation stuff is so last century. We have to keep up with modern thinking and remember that anyone who needs to break the law is obviously a helpless sufferer of some alphabet syndrome/conditon/disorder so should be compenstated for anything that might happen ever anywhere.
 
#13
OldTimer said:
The Prison Reform Trust complaining about the 92 suicides in UK jails . If criminals didn't commit crimes they wouldn't be in jail and at least they are doing something to resolve prison overcrowding.
What a brainless opinion.

We have real problems in the prison system regarding its treatment of drug addicts and inappropriate sentancing. Rates of drug use and addiction in prisons are positively HUGE in comparison to civilian life, (having known a few wardens and teachers in prison, its just something they accept that they cannot combat effectivly) and with people being imprisoned for crimes which would be more appropriately punished by community service...

So, 18 year old person X gets locked up for fighting in the street, causing a distrubance of the peace, whatever. What are the results? Person X is now exposed to a tolerated atmosphere of drug use, and is now in the company of the scum of society. Not to mention that the taxpayer has to foot a huge bill for his accomodation, food, protection (wardens), medical care, dental care etc etc

Now tell me that this situation is preferable to giving person X a stiff term of community service? In the first scenario he is going to leave prison hardened and corrupted by people far worse than himself and far more likely to re-offend due to the influence of the people he has met there. With a term of community service, he will actually benifit society and learn the value of a days work, opposed to coming out a junk addicted, criminally minded, DSS leech.

We not only need a shake up of the prison system but also of the justice system. It might be easier to sweep criminals under the rug for a few years but it is not only neglecting to deal with the problem at its root, its amplifying it when these people are released in far worse form several years later.

It doesn't help the prisoner reform and it doesn't help society in anyway whatsoever.

J.
 
#14
Only 92 wasters commited suicide, clearly prisons are too soft!

It would be more appropriate for the Prison Reform Trust to do something about drugs and education / training for inmates rather than say jail is not appropriate punishment.
 
#15
JayCam said:
OldTimer said:
The Prison Reform Trust complaining about the 92 suicides in UK jails . If criminals didn't commit crimes they wouldn't be in jail and at least they are doing something to resolve prison overcrowding.
What a brainless opinion.

We have real problems in the prison system regarding its treatment of drug addicts and inappropriate sentancing. Rates of drug use and addiction in prisons are positively HUGE in comparison to civilian life, (having known a few wardens and teachers in prison, its just something they accept that they cannot combat effectivly) and with people being imprisoned for crimes which would be more appropriately punished by community service...

So, 18 year old person X gets locked up for fighting in the street, causing a distrubance of the peace, whatever. What are the results? Person X is now exposed to a tolerated atmosphere of drug use, and is now in the company of the scum of society. Not to mention that the taxpayer has to foot a huge bill for his accomodation, food, protection (wardens), medical care, dental care etc etc

Now tell me that this situation is preferable to giving person X a stiff term of community service? In the first scenario he is going to leave prison hardened and corrupted by people far worse than himself and far more likely to re-offend due to the influence of the people he has met there. With a term of community service, he will actually benifit society and learn the value of a days work, opposed to coming out a junk addicted, criminally minded, DSS leech.

We not only need a shake up of the prison system but also of the justice system. It might be easier to sweep criminals under the rug for a few years but it is not only neglecting to deal with the problem at its root, its amplifying it when these people are released in far worse form several years later.

It doesn't help the prisoner reform and it doesn't help society in anyway whatsoever.

J.
If 18 yr old X hadnt been fighting in the street causing a disturbance then he wouldnt be in Jail??? And if he is in jail, then just because its a tolerated atmosphere does it mean he has to join in ???
 
#16
MSI64 said:
JayCam said:
OldTimer said:
The Prison Reform Trust complaining about the 92 suicides in UK jails . If criminals didn't commit crimes they wouldn't be in jail and at least they are doing something to resolve prison overcrowding.
What a brainless opinion.

We have real problems in the prison system regarding its treatment of drug addicts and inappropriate sentancing. Rates of drug use and addiction in prisons are positively HUGE in comparison to civilian life, (having known a few wardens and teachers in prison, its just something they accept that they cannot combat effectivly) and with people being imprisoned for crimes which would be more appropriately punished by community service...

So, 18 year old person X gets locked up for fighting in the street, causing a distrubance of the peace, whatever. What are the results? Person X is now exposed to a tolerated atmosphere of drug use, and is now in the company of the scum of society. Not to mention that the taxpayer has to foot a huge bill for his accomodation, food, protection (wardens), medical care, dental care etc etc

Now tell me that this situation is preferable to giving person X a stiff term of community service? In the first scenario he is going to leave prison hardened and corrupted by people far worse than himself and far more likely to re-offend due to the influence of the people he has met there. With a term of community service, he will actually benifit society and learn the value of a days work, opposed to coming out a junk addicted, criminally minded, DSS leech.

We not only need a shake up of the prison system but also of the justice system. It might be easier to sweep criminals under the rug for a few years but it is not only neglecting to deal with the problem at its root, its amplifying it when these people are released in far worse form several years later.

It doesn't help the prisoner reform and it doesn't help society in anyway whatsoever.

J.
If 18 yr old X hadnt been fighting in the street causing a disturbance then he wouldnt be in Jail??? And if he is in jail, then just because its a tolerated atmosphere does it mean he has to join in ???
And its only a tolerated atmosphere because the wardens arent ensuring drugs dont get smuggled in. I reckon we bring back corporal punishment and start wipping these chav mongs in the street.
 
#17
Quite agree JayCam.

Unless there is a risk to public safety, ie the criminal commited ABH, Murder, etc. they should get community service.

I would like them to be kept in special open prisons/bail hostels where they pay a deposit on entry and treat it like a hotel, but obviously no alcohol, drugs and a nightly lock down. They can carry on with their normal jobs.

Food and Accomodation charged at reasonable rates.

If they can't handle that system straight to jail it is.

In jail, they are worked and educated. 0 tolerance on drugs. Get caught on drugs, it is time for some punishment. No work (no pay) and no visits.

A system of reward and punishment could be implemented too. Where the trustees get some serious rewards for being trustees.

Where possible, education should be provided.

But don't for one minute think that this would be "easy" time. The prison regime needs to be a harsh but fair one.

3rd time in Jail should result in a massive sentence.

I'm all for a bit of corperal punishment too, for some offences/offenders. Esp Chavs. Put it on tele just before the lottery.

A few selected Capital Punishments wouldn't go a miss either. Ian Huntley for example.

Could it be that the Prisons have been spending so much time and effort keeping that waste of skin from topping himself that the others have had the chance?
 
#18
MSI64 said:
If 18 yr old X hadnt been fighting in the street causing a disturbance then he wouldnt be in Jail???
Mate you are missing the point. I am saying that prison is not an effective way to "rehabilitate" offenders of such crimes. Fighting in the street is not socially acceptable its true, and this behaviour needs to be rectified. But prison is not the way to do this.

Prison should be reserved for the murderers, rapists, chavs who beat old ladies to death etc... people who are a real danger to soceity. A young lad who gets drunk and gets into a brawl in the street is not a danger to society in the same way. Give him community service and teach him how to be a contributing member of society and by the time he is 21, he might just have sorted himself out. The alternative, is lock him up till he is 21, let him out, and he goes and does it again, but this time worse, because by the standards of the people he has just spent 3 years with, this IS acceptable. Also hes addicted to junk and hasn't worked a day in his life.

"Criminals" shouldn't have their lives ruined by some mistakes they made when they are young. Who doesn't know someone who didn't go a bit off the rails as a teenager?

Our current penal system is just contributing to the core problems of our society. Like I said, keep prisons for people who cannot be allowed to enter society for the dangers they pose. If the problem can be corrected, we should correct it, rather than burying our heads in the sand and taking the easy route.

I remember reading a few months back of a kid who got put in prison for spraypainting a wall. Lets use this example to illustrate my point.

Results of putting him in prison:

1) He is now associating with real criminals and an atmosphere of drug addiction etc etc.
2) The taxpayer has to support him (which is far more expensive than if he was on DSS, so please dont suggest it isnt)
3) Someone has to be paid to clean the spray paint off the damaged wall
4) He now has a criminal record and this will make it hard for him to find a job, so guess whos going to be on the dole when he gets out?

Results of giving him community service cleaning graffitti around his home town:

1) He learns that if he makes a mess, someone has to clean it up (a core social value?)
2) He learns what a days work feels like.
3) The wall gets cleaned for free

So do you still agree that putting him in jail would be the best option?

And if he is in jail, then just because its a tolerated atmosphere does it mean he has to join in ???
This is just a naiive statement. Can an impressionable teenager resist the pressure of a huge number of hardened crinimals who are intent on getting him hooked so that he has to buy from them when he leaves the system? What about when these are the ONLY people he associates with? What if he comes from a chav family who have never taugh him anything about morals or ethics?

Not a chance.

J.
 
#19
chocolate_frog said:
3rd time in Jail should result in a massive sentence.
Yes, in the form of death. If the useless drain on society fuckers haven't learnt by their third sentence then they're never going to learn are they? Why should we put up with them?

Just kill the useless fuckers. I'll gladly do it.
 
#20
JayCam said:
OldTimer said:
The Prison Reform Trust complaining about the 92 suicides in UK jails . If criminals didn't commit crimes they wouldn't be in jail and at least they are doing something to resolve prison overcrowding.
What a brainless opinion.

We have real problems in the prison system regarding its treatment of drug addicts and inappropriate sentancing. Rates of drug use and addiction in prisons are positively HUGE in comparison to civilian life, (having known a few wardens and teachers in prison, its just something they accept that they cannot combat effectivly) and with people being imprisoned for crimes which would be more appropriately punished by community service...

So, 18 year old person X gets locked up for fighting in the street, causing a distrubance of the peace, whatever. What are the results? Person X is now exposed to a tolerated atmosphere of drug use, and is now in the company of the scum of society. Not to mention that the taxpayer has to foot a huge bill for his accomodation, food, protection (wardens), medical care, dental care etc etc

Now tell me that this situation is preferable to giving person X a stiff term of community service? In the first scenario he is going to leave prison hardened and corrupted by people far worse than himself and far more likely to re-offend due to the influence of the people he has met there. With a term of community service, he will actually benifit society and learn the value of a days work, opposed to coming out a junk addicted, criminally minded, DSS leech.

We not only need a shake up of the prison system but also of the justice system. It might be easier to sweep criminals under the rug for a few years but it is not only neglecting to deal with the problem at its root, its amplifying it when these people are released in far worse form several years later.

It doesn't help the prisoner reform and it doesn't help society in anyway whatsoever.

J.
Erm....just HOW are the drugs getting ito jails ? The Prison Officers are simply turning a blind eye ? Bollocks, they're NOT doing their job, they're too busy bleating about their terms and conditions of service or berating the Gubmint through their union.

Here's a plan:
Seal off all physical contact from prisoners to visitors. Glass panels and phone comms like the US jails seem to work. PLUS make it a criminal offence for any person to be in possession (visitor / Prisoner / Prison Officer / Welfare Worker / Do-gooder to be in possession of a prohibited substance. (except Med Staff etc) within the walls of HMP or in the vicinity of HMP.

Tough ? You bet. But let's not forget that the those in jail were sentenced by the judiciary in accordance with the law. Tough on families of inmates ? Yep, but I think that a safer nick would be a shade more reassuring to a distraught wife / mother etc to know that the gobsh*te she sired / married in the first place may just come out it of it wishing never to go back.

Prison population stands at about the same as a complete Armoured Division at the moment and more nicks are planned, so this problem of drug culture in nick is NOT going to go away.....particularly when the do-gooders state that Prison Officers must knock before entering the cells.

Did the Gob-sh*tes knock before entering a pensioner's bungalow to steal her last ten quid ?

Reform ? Yeah, lets continue to try, but the sh*ts have got to try it on our terms, if they don't, then nick is where they should stay. Tough on families ? Yep, but sooner or later they will realise that they backed a loser.

Prison Officers....get off your arses and start work. A police station in every chokey might just be a start along with the technology to disrupt mobile phone transmissions. A big sign in front of every prison entrance...."Dear Scrote / Scrotess, the law didn't put you in this position....YOUR actions did. No bleating allowed."

"Arbeit Macht Frei" sounds better but it does have a few negative historical connotations.

If I were Home Secretary I would hold the record for the shortest speech on prisons ever. Here it is:

Good Evening....I'm spending no more of the tax payers hard earned cash on prisons or prisoners. As a result, conditions in these penitentiaries will steadily worsen over the next ten years.

The message is quite clear, jail is NOT the place to be...so f*cking stay out of there". Thank you for listening.


92 Suicides is bloody awful and the hopelessness they felt had to be so extreme as to be that unbearable. But how many said, "F*ck, I wish I hadn't done that", before they topped themselves ? We'll never know.

What we do know is prison is the last place on earth people should want be. We need, as a society, to really reinforce the message that it is a place for punishment, but also of reform....but on our terms.

Rant over, the pub is open.
 
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