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Pope off

Those who profess a theistic belief should be allowed to do so and such a right should be protected. Discussion and debate apart, my concern is much more to do with, in my opinion, unwarranted and excessive influence and privilege.

Generally agreed, although I do wonder if there is as much influence and privilege as some perceive.
 
Yes, I agree – there was very likely a major but relatively local flood which became mythologized as affecting the whole planet and, given the level of understanding at the time, was the result of an angry god. What I find bizarre is that there are many around today, including intelligent and otherwise well educated people, who still consider the story of Noah to be 100% true as written in the Bible.

I’m old enough to remember being told the story in school assembly as if it was a factual account, with the clear implication of what happens to naughty people. Nowt like a bit of fear for controlling five year olds, or 50 year olds for that matter. No wonder some of those in positions of authority, or those that want to be, still like the story. Do as I say, or else...

Well you have to remember that there is money in this and the more who believe in these things the happier people are? You only have to watch the quest for Noah's ark and the number of theological scholars who actually depend on these things. They come largely from the US and you may have noticed there is a thread on here about American outrage of secularisation, which I use as my point. The issue is this they would all love to be able to put the bible in a creationist context, because there is money in the churches. Now I ask you of you go to Cape Canaveral and watch a launch, 3-2-1 blast off and if you pass god on the way to the moon please ask his forgiveness. Then off they troop to church to show they are good christians.

As I said before the bible is a good source of folk memory which is being pedaled as an absolute truth. In terms of Sunday school so do I, but then I grew up.
 

mercurydancer

LE
Book Reviewer
A good post and worth repeating. Unlike Higgs, though I agree with him on many points, and despite the way it might seem within the limitations of a forum geared towards short posts, I don’t regard all theists as even close to the same. There’s an enormous gulf between the ends of the spectrum.

Those who profess a theistic belief should be allowed to do so and such a right should be protected. Discussion and debate apart, my concern is much more to do with, in my opinion, unwarranted and excessive influence and privilege.

As an aside, but still relevant to your post; one of my friends is a (now “retired”) vicar. About 10 years ago he was sent on a sort of secondment to a particularly religious US state for six months. In my naivety I thought he’d be happy, but he disagreed, describing the religious there as “nutters”. His view on his return was far worse and a lot less polite. On one occasion he was apparently gently escorted from a church for his metaphorical and “heretical” views of certain parts of the OT. He’s still a Christian, but has these strange ideas about being nice.

You are a wise man indeed. It is genuinely interesting and enlightening to discuss matters with you. Do not think that there is the slightest element of sarcasm there, I mean it.
 
Bugger here‘ is thePope catholic ..‘


‚A clerk read out charges including how Martinelli allegedly forced a boy known by his initials LG 'to undergo carnal acts, acts of sodomy, masturbation on himself and on the boy, at different times and in different places inside Vatican City'.


Problem is in a double edged sword(please forgive the pun) the one doiNG the shafting was himself at The time was questionable age of responsibility. While old priest who is also in dock just covered up the umm nocturnal activities.

cheers
 
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Bugger here is there Pope catholic ..


Problem is in a double edged sword(please forgive the pun) the one doiNG the shafting was himself at The time was questionable age of responsibility and the old priest who is also in dock just covered it up.

cheers
Religion is a man made perversion of minds where unnatural tendencies abound.
 
Religion is a man made perversion of minds where unnatural tendencies abound.
Because, of course, adults with paedophilic tendencies only centre around religious belief to ply their trade?

If that was the case how do you explain perverts preying on the vulnerable in mental hospitals (like Jimmy Savile), children's homes (like they did in Rochdale and Oxford), or the seemingly weekly news reports of teachers grooming kids?

It's a straw man argument, as well you know. Or are you going to try an convince me that no atheist has ever been caught up to his/her back axles in a kid because only a belief in a God you deny could drive a person to it?
 
It's cos going without sex for ages is unnatural and daft and you get so desperate you'll start shagging anything girlie looking - hence the choir boy with the golden locks and smooth arse getting bummed into oblivion. Same thing happens in prison and any male dominated environment.

That and the fact that most Catholics are fkn hypocrites. Look at the Italians, a race notorious for the Mafia, having affairs and bunga parties.
 
Because, of course, adults with paedophilic tendencies only centre around religious belief to ply their trade?

If that was the case how do you explain perverts preying on the vulnerable in mental hospitals (like Jimmy Savile), children's homes (like they did in Rochdale and Oxford), or the seemingly weekly news reports of teachers grooming kids?

It's a straw man argument, as well you know. Or are you going to try an convince me that no atheist has ever been caught up to his/her back axles in a kid because only a belief in a God you deny could drive a person to it?
Denial!... are you from the Vatican? Look mate...there is no god. Saville was a believer. The priesthood is a honeypot for perverts. That is all a fact. Now I will flagellate myself in front of a mirror for forgiveness.
 
Because, of course, adults with paedophilic tendencies only centre around religious belief to ply their trade?

If that was the case how do you explain perverts preying on the vulnerable in mental hospitals (like Jimmy Savile), children's homes (like they did in Rochdale and Oxford), or the seemingly weekly news reports of teachers grooming kids?

It's a straw man argument, as well you know. Or are you going to try an convince me that no atheist has ever been caught up to his/her back axles in a kid because only a belief in a God you deny could drive a person to it?
I think it's more to do with the institutional cover-ups that the church has taken part in. Nonces come in all shades, creeds, colours, belief systems and occupations - but not all institutions that said individual nonce would necessarily try to protect the accused rather than the victim.

That's a big problem. Especially when the institution that they are a part of enables them to have unsupervised contact with children.
 
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Because, of course, adults with paedophilic tendencies only centre around religious belief to ply their trade?

If that was the case how do you explain perverts preying on the vulnerable in mental hospitals (like Jimmy Savile), children's homes (like they did in Rochdale and Oxford), or the seemingly weekly news reports of teachers grooming kids?

It's a straw man argument, as well you know. Or are you going to try an convince me that no atheist has ever been caught up to his/her back axles in a kid because only a belief in a God you deny could drive a person to it?
For shame. The argument that all dogs are animals therefore all animals are dogs has been fairly thoroughly undermined by the cats are animals theory. And the strawman one.
 
Denial!... are you from the Vatican? Look mate...there is no god. Saville was a believer. The priesthood is a honeypot for perverts. That is all a fact. Now I will flagellate myself in front of a mirror for forgiveness.
No, they are a very jaundiced portrayal of "facts".

Savile was baptised and confirmed in the Catholic church, as many people who only step foot inside a church for baptisms, weddings, funerals, and the odd showing at Christmas are. The fact that he was baptised and confirmed doesn't mean he believed anything.

Any institution where the strong can prey on the weak is a "honey pot" for unnatural perversions to abound (as you put it). Like I said, teachers groom children, police officers have been proven to groom the victims of abuse, kebab shop owners have groomed children living in care, so have social workers. If you dig deeply enough you will find institutional failings in each of those professions. The cases of Victoria Climbie or Baby P(eter) prove that well enough.

Equally there are committed, good and decent teachers, police officers, social workers and they see themselves as fulfilling a vocation. The same is true of priests.

Attempting to link personal failings, the institutional blindness that allowed those with their perversions to gravitate towards the institution and then the inclination to fail to act appropriately in the (false) hope that the least said the quickest mended to some sort of "proof" that the philosophy, system of belief, or the supposed impossibility that good people are motivated by the best reasons found in their moral compass is non-existent is a failing of the logic of cause and effect.

I'd respect your position more if you just said "I don't believe there is a God or any sort of higher intelligence or supernatural being, but I can respect your position that there is" as the basis for a rational debate.
 
No, they are a very jaundiced portrayal of "facts".

Savile was baptised and confirmed in the Catholic church, as many people who only step foot inside a church for baptisms, weddings, funerals, and the odd showing at Christmas are. The fact that he was baptised and confirmed doesn't mean he believed anything.

Any institution where the strong can prey on the weak is a "honey pot" for unnatural perversions to abound (as you put it). Like I said, teachers groom children, police officers have been proven to groom the victims of abuse, kebab shop owners have groomed children living in care, so have social workers. If you dig deeply enough you will find institutional failings in each of those professions. The cases of Victoria Climbie or Baby P(eter) prove that well enough.

Equally there are committed, good and decent teachers, police officers, social workers and they see themselves as fulfilling a vocation. The same is true of priests.

Attempting to link personal failings, the institutional blindness that allowed those with their perversions to gravitate towards the institution and then the inclination to fail to act appropriately in the (false) hope that the least said the quickest mended to some sort of "proof" that the philosophy, system of belief, or the supposed impossibility that good people are motivated by the best reasons found in their moral compass is non-existent is a failing of the logic of cause and effect.

I'd respect your position more if you just said "I don't believe there is a God or any sort of higher intelligence or supernatural being, but I can respect your position that there is" as the basis for a rational debate.
The case for Saville is a red herring...the churches are full of non believers and others unfit for the office they hold..in fact similar to society as a whole, just that the hypocrisy of religion is much more obvious. You also ignore the cause and effect of childhood indoctrination. In islam, a likelihood of violent extremism unseen in other doctrines. In catholicism, a twisted depravity induced by unnatural pressures and frustration.

As an anti-theist I have the right to criticise all religions and claim that their gods do not exist. I do not require any respect in return.
 
Denial!... are you from the Vatican? Look mate...there is no god. Saville was a believer. The priesthood is a honeypot for perverts. That is all a fact. Now I will flagellate myself in front of a mirror for forgiveness.

As are scout groups and others

I think you are in error determining that Religion is cause rather than a convinient means of access and cover
 
As are scout groups and others

I think you are in error determining that Religion is cause rather than a convinient means of access and cover
Religion causes many things. I and am not saying that other causes do not exist.
 
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armchair_ninja

Old-Salt
As are scout groups and others

I think you are in error determining that Religion is cause rather than a convinient means of access and cover

Having worked in this area in a previous career, it is well known that pedophiles gravitate towards any organisation where they have unsupervised access to young people or can occupy a position of authority where they can engineer the chance to abuse a young person. There are many such organisations and you find that generally the national voluntary youth organisations are very thorough about checking applicants before they have access to young people.

No organisation can prevent an unknown pedophile joining. What they can do is make it impossible for him or her to carry out their abuse and also to prevent a culture of covering up for that person.
 
As an anti-theist I have the right to criticise all religions and claim that their gods do not exist. I do not require any respect in return.
Who gave you that right I wonder? All joking aside, it's a bit like saying that having dark brown hair I have the right to criticise gingers and all that they do, all that they stand for, and to make as many straw man arguments about them as I feel, such as asserting that my dark gives me the authority to definitively state that their ginger hair is the cause of what I deem to be (say) sexual deviance, and also that being ginger from birth means that they are incapable of rational thought to reject such predilictions.

It's as well you don't require any respect because the sense I get is all sides of this argument think you are a cnut. It's the fact that this is CA and the rules of engagement here are debate rather than just slagging each other off that I've called you out in the first place.

One of us is wrong on the God front. I don't believe it's me, but even if it were, my life has been enriched with art, architecture, language, music, and ritual (through mass in Latin with chant and polyphony with the finest music from some of the best composers ever lived in Baroque and Gothic churches and cathedrals of the highest calibre) all designed to uplift and inspire so frankly, I've lost nothing other than the time spent immersed in what is calming and (for me at least) centred and well spent. What exactly have you gained? I'm sure you could tell me you could do the same for purely aesthetic purposes, or forgo the church setting and enjoy art and music that suits your taste, but ultimately without any of it serving a purpose or having any context, what would be the point?
 
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Religion causes many things. I and am not saying that other causes do not exist.
So if other causes for bad things exist, such as expansionist desire for domination and subjugation of populaces and resources being the causus belli for war, and an attraction to pre-pubescent children that is acted on by means of getting involved with a dance troupe to gain unsupervised access, then are you still insisting that religion is the cause or war or paedophilia, or do you concede that it is just another convenient mechanism to be exploited by those who would find any other means and justification to behave that way?

If it's the case that religion does not directly causes war and paedophilia because the real causes lie elsewhere, then what, exactly, does religion "cause", because there's a straight line logic here. Either religion causes these things to happen solely because that is the natural consequence of religion or it doesn't as it can't be both, it is by definition mutually exclusive?
 
Some are still in denial that the church is infested with paedophiles, why is not important. All religions are complete bollox anyway but systematic childhood brainwashing continues and demographics determine the type.
 

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