Pope JP on his last gasp...

#3
Maybe soon we can get a pope who can reel in the AIDS mongers who are advising Africa that condoms don't work and large families are a good idea. Some kind of apology for the past ills of the catholic church would be nice too.
 
#4
You really think that they would choose a new pope with a mind of his own, not a mission. The pope, like the Queen, is a figure head. But in the popes case, lots of other people pull the strings. :roll:
 
#5
Whilst having no personal malice for the aged Vicar of Rome - I abhor his church and his role within it.

The Roman Catholic Church is run in a climate of fear and control freakery that defies logic in this day and age. The Pontiff's stance on safe sex, abortion, married priests, child abuse by his priests, AIDS, and family planning are at best irresponsible and at worst evil! His church supported German National Socialism (thats the Nazis), and we are all well aware of their stance on terrorism - anyone out there not spent years of their lives mopping up the mess in Northern Ireland? They are more than implicated in the shannigans that happened in Rwanda. And their blinkered intransigence in South America is causing misery on an unbelievable, and largely unreported, scale

Hurry up and die old chap. Do the 3rd world a favour and lets have a caring realist to fill his boots and funny little hat.
 
#6
Queensman said:
Whilst having no personal malice for the aged Vicar of Rome - I abhor his church and his role within it.

The Roman Catholic Church is run in a climate of fear and control freakery that defies logic in this day and age. The Pontiff's stance on safe sex, abortion, married priests, child abuse by his priests, AIDS, and family planning are at best irresponsible and at worst evil! His church supported German National Socialism (thats the Nazis), and we are all well aware of their stance on terrorism - anyone out there not spent years of their lives mopping up the mess in Northern Ireland? They are more than implicated in the shannigans that happened in Rwanda. And their blinkered intransigence in South America is causing misery on an unbelievable, and largely unreported, scale

Hurry up and die old chap. Do the 3rd world a favour and lets have a caring realist to fill his boots and funny little hat.
I agree with you 100 percent.

For an organisation devoted to god it not only allows, but encourages grief and suffering.

The only thing I would say is that there is no chance of a caring realist getting in there. The Vatican is basically like a very old, established political party. Jobs for the boys and no one will be allowed in who might rock the boat.

PD
 
#7
Queensman said:
Whilst having no personal malice for the aged Vicar of Rome - I abhor his church and his role within it.

The Roman Catholic Church is run in a climate of fear and control freakery that defies logic in this day and age. The Pontiff's stance on safe sex, abortion, married priests, child abuse by his priests, AIDS, and family planning are at best irresponsible and at worst evil! His church supported German National Socialism (thats the Nazis), and we are all well aware of their stance on terrorism - anyone out there not spent years of their lives mopping up the mess in Northern Ireland? They are more than implicated in the shannigans that happened in Rwanda. And their blinkered intransigence in South America is causing misery on an unbelievable, and largely unreported, scale

Hurry up and die old chap. Do the 3rd world a favour and lets have a caring realist to fill his boots and funny little hat.
Said like someone who doesn't understand the issues:

Catholicism and Nazi'sim

Pope Pius 12th took a very hard line in his relations with Hitler, so much so he wanted him killed. Pius had a responsibility to the 12 million or so Catholics who were also being persecuted by the Riech. Pius was personally responsible for the sanctioning of paying huge extortion demands to the Nazi's to save the Italian Jews from the gas chambers when the Jews couldn't come up with the cash. The Vatican and the thousands of RC churches and safe houses housed tens of thousands of Jews and escaped allied servicemen. Pius was an experienced diplomat and knew enough to say what needed to be said to condemn the nazis in diplomatic circles and was responsible for slowing down the progress of the "final solution", though he couldn't eventually stop it, only military might could do that. As a consequence of his actions the Chief Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism and the Jewish community hailed Pius as a "Rightous Man".

There are many detractors out there of the Catholic Church who love to spin stories that are based on little more than rumour and lies. Pius did everything he could for the Jews, and all victims of the Germans, in the war.

Married priests

This is a discipline of the church, and thee are smoe small numbers of married priests who have come accross from other denominations such as the CofE. Those who become priests know the rule of celibacy and are happy to give themselves to the service of the church. Those that don't want to take a vow of celibacy become permanent (married) Deacons. It's a choice men make of their own free will.

Child abuse by priests

In a population of 200,000 you will find a small number of people who are peadophiles in any such community. It isn't restricted to the RC church and instances have happened in all kinds of religious clergy of all denominations and religions. Some individual bishops mishandled cases, but the church's position has always been clear from the outset of the problem: priests who abuse children are to be handed over to the authorities and prosecuted, a message he reinforced 2 years ago by calling all US bishops to the Vatican to account for themselves.

South America

The church has always denounced terrorism, as per his visit to Cuba where he publicly rebuked Castro. He took a stance against "Liberation Theology" which was akin to Marxism and preached armed struggle.

NI

He has always denounced PIRA, who although they claim to represent the Irish Catholics, in fact don't. Not all catholics want unification with the Republic, and it was the media that linked Catholicism to Republicanism. Republicanism is just that, people who want to be ruled by the Republic of Ireland not GB, it is not a facet of religion nor does it have the support of the Catholic church, though it may be an ideal supported by individuals in it, as with any other body of the population you get a variance of views (just as there are some members of the armed forces who vote Labour, the armed forces are not in fact the Labour party or oplitical movement).

Safe Sex/AIDS/Abortion

Contentious issues, but the role of the Pope is to uphold the theology of the Church, and there are sound theological reasons for it's position. You either choose to accept them and be a Catholic or you don't. The Church hasn't hampered the rteatment of AIDS, it hasn't cast out anyone who has used birth control. If, like the Planned Parenthood Federation, you advocate teaching 8 year olds about **** sex, oral sex, and the use of abortion as a means of birth control, then I think you should expect some outraged opinion whether from Catholics or not.

speedy said:
Some kind of apology for the past ills of the catholic church would be nice too.

Like the one he gave during the Millenium Year you mean?
 
#8
I'd recommend

Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews -- A History
by James Carroll

to anyone who wants to know everything about the way the Catholic has behaved towards Jews.
The Popes have indeed done a lot to heal the rift, and indeed have done a lot to propel the Catholic church forward (see Vatican II). In fact, Pope Paul VI was a real surprise to everyone, and did even more than John Paul has done to advance reconciliation. The fact that I am no longer told about how the Jews killed Jesus by Priests is a big step forward to me. Shame that new message never got to my Catholic wife's Mid-Western town, though :(...
 
#9
woopert said:
Safe Sex/AIDS/Abortion

Contentious issues, but the role of the Pope is to uphold the theology of the Church, and there are sound theological reasons for it's position. You either choose to accept them and be a Catholic or you don't. The Church hasn't hampered the rteatment of AIDS, it hasn't cast out anyone who has used birth control. If, like the Planned Parenthood Federation, you advocate teaching 8 year olds about **** sex, oral sex, and the use of abortion as a means of birth control, then I think you should expect some outraged opinion whether from Catholics or not.
Whilst i agree with the sentiment of your post, i must disagree with your point on safe/sex aids. Granted the pope is upholding the theology of the catholic church (and such is his choice and freedom to do), but i take issue with your claim that the church hasnt hampered the treatment of aids/HIV in africa. The catholic church apply moral and religious pressure on the christians (and non christians) in africa NOT to use contraceptive and that it is not gods will for them to use it. Because the christians in africa tend to be more god fearing and beliving of the church leadership (when compared to western christians), they take more heed when the pope et al preach to them not to use contraceptive. This alone has led to huge numbers of new AIDS/HIV cases.

Because of their 'dark ages' view on sex and contraceptives, they have consigned a large proportion of africa to an un-neccesary plague. Granted, the africans have a large part to play in that, but the church (along with others) must take a fair share of the blame.

In terms of your point on Planned Parenthood Federation's ideas, i too find them absolutely abhorrent and as irresponsible as the churches intransigence towards contraceptives. We must find some middle way, where education AND contraceptives are used to stop aids, not one or the other!

A_S

Any way, back on topic. I hope he dies soon. I wouldnt want him to suffer any longer than he has to. RIP.
 
#10
woopert said:
Said like someone who doesn't understand the issues
Said like someone who's been brainwashed by papist dogma and spin.

Your reply is full of 'He this and He that'. 'He' seems to be a front man much in the mould of the sainted Mr Bliar - looking the part, saying all the right things, keeping public attention on him, whilst his flock carry on beneath his topcover regardless.

'He' as I understand it is the embodiment of the church. Surely he is in a position to bring about change from within, and not just go along with the outdated fashions of the past. There's nothing in the Bible about priests not marrying - its a relatively modern idea, brought in to maintain the aforementioned dominance and control freakery. In the good old days popes used to marry their own mothers/sisters/etc.

Quite apart from anything else, it is unhealthy for normally rational people to abandon commonsense and follow his slanted pronouncements and edicts, and treat him as a demi-god. The post of pope is not particularly democratic. His influence is therefore unwelcome in more emancipated countries.
 
#12
Soldier_Why said:
woopert said:
Pope Pius 12th took a very hard line in his relations with Hitler, so much so he wanted him killed.
And yet still didn't ex-communicate him??
As in Hitler wanted Pius dead.

A C&P job from this paper

But what of the official Church? In the past year there has been a fresh irruption of stories about the alleged inaction of the hierarchy, and especially the "silence" of Pope Pius XII, stories worse in some ways even than Rolf Hochhuth's scurrilous 1963 play, "The Deputy." Even The New Yorker, in its April 7, 1997 edition, printed an article that asserted Pius and the hierarchy turned their backs on the Jews; and journals such as The Catholic Times and The National Catholic Register (owned by the Legionaries of Christ) in reporting the progress of a document on the Holocaust being prepared by the Pontifical Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews, treat the question as open.

Probably the most systematic and comprehensive study of the Pope's and the hierarchy's handling of the Holocaust is Pinchas Lapide's 1967 book, Three Popes and the Jews. Lapide, an Israeli diplomat, was a member of the Palestinian Brigade that found many interned Jews in Italy at the end of World War II. After exhaustive research, Lapide concluded that at least 700,000 Jews, and more likely 860,000, owed their lives directly to the Church; he also concluded that Pius simply could not have done more than he did. The suggestion that Pius ought to have spoken more forcefully he treats with near derision; he quotes many Jewish leaders, many of them rescued by Catholics, to the effect that more forceful speeches would certainly not have caused the Nazis to moderate the persecutions, and would most probably have induced them to intensify them.
Not that the Pope was silent. As early as April 1935, as Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pacelli addressed 250,000 pilgrims at Lourdes: "These [Nazi] ideologues are in fact only miserable plagiarizers who dress up ancient error in new tinsel. It matters little whether they rally round the flag of the social revolution...or are possessed by the superstition of race and blood." He was responsible for the final wording of Pius XI's March 1937 encyclical, Mit brennender Sorge ("With burning sorrow"), and made it more strongly antiracist. The encyclical, the first ever written in German, was read in all German churches on Palm Sunday; the Nazi Foreign Office characterized it as "a call to battle…as it calls upon Catholic citizens to rebel against the authority of the Reich."2


"There is no doubt," says Leon Poliakov, a Jewish historian of the Holocaust, "that secret instructions went out from the Vatican urging the national churches to intervene in favor of the Jews by every possible means."5

I'd reccommend a film called The Scarlet and the Black about Monseignor Hugh O'Flarety, and his work savnig hundreds of Jews and POW's. A thorough read of the above piece says a little about him. The man who persecuted hmi most, Col Keppler of the Gestapo later became a Catholic at his hands!

also this (and I know Jamie Bogle personally and can vouch for his unbiased opinion on this)?:

Excerpt from "The Real Story of Pius XII and the Jews"

By James Bogle

{Barrister of the Middle Temple, and former Cavalry officer)

From: Catalyst, Vol. 23, No. 10, December 1996}

>snip<

The fact that some bad Catholics allowed themselves to become involved
with the Nazi terror cannot be blamed on Pope Pius XII-any more than the
fact that there were Jewish Kapos and a Jewish police helping the Nazis
enforce their extermination policies can be blamed upon Jewish religious
leaders. Pius XII plainly repudiated the perverted doctrines of the Nazis
and also the immoral Fascist doctrines of Benito Mussolini (which had been
condemned in the encyclical "Non Abbiamo Bisogno" meaning 'we have
no need' i.e. of Fascist doctrines)

He is also sometimes criticised for not excommunicating Hitler, but
Hitler was already excommunicated "ipso facto" for a whole range of
crimes and could only have returned to the Catholic faith, even assuming
that he would ever have wanted to, by having his excommunication lifted
by the Pope himself. The lifting of the sentence was reserved to the Holy
See, "latue sententiae". Besides, the complaint assumes that Hitler
took some notice of the Holy See and the Catholic Church. Insofar as he
did
it was for purely political reasons, since he was forced to recognize the
influence of the Catholic Church and the Papacy

>snip<
 
#14
T6 said:
The Pope has passed. He was a man of the age. Truely a great man.
I'm not going to disagree with a septic where religion is concerned - old John Paul has kicked as much arrse as his cardinals have allowed him to.

But it says on Sky News that 'his heart and brain are still functioning'.

Are you part of the Merovingian family?
 
#15
This is the pope that did little to stop the abuse of kids by his priests.......
 
#17
Queensman said:
Whilst having no personal malice for the aged Vicar of Rome - I abhor his church and his role within it.

The Roman Catholic Church is run in a climate of fear and control freakery that defies logic in this day and age. The Pontiff's stance on safe sex, abortion, married priests, child abuse by his priests, AIDS, and family planning are at best irresponsible and at worst evil! His church supported German National Socialism (thats the Nazis), and we are all well aware of their stance on terrorism - anyone out there not spent years of their lives mopping up the mess in Northern Ireland? They are more than implicated in the shannigans that happened in Rwanda. And their blinkered intransigence in South America is causing misery on an unbelievable, and largely unreported, scale

Hurry up and die old chap. Do the 3rd world a favour and lets have a caring realist to fill his boots and funny little hat.


And your point is ??????
 
#18
PoisonDwarf said:
Queensman said:
Whilst having no personal malice for the aged Vicar of Rome - I abhor his church and his role within it.

The Roman Catholic Church is run in a climate of fear and control freakery that defies logic in this day and age. The Pontiff's stance on safe sex, abortion, married priests, child abuse by his priests, AIDS, and family planning are at best irresponsible and at worst evil! His church supported German National Socialism (thats the Nazis), and we are all well aware of their stance on terrorism - anyone out there not spent years of their lives mopping up the mess in Northern Ireland? They are more than implicated in the shannigans that happened in Rwanda. And their blinkered intransigence in South America is causing misery on an unbelievable, and largely unreported, scale

Hurry up and die old chap. Do the 3rd world a favour and lets have a caring realist to fill his boots and funny little hat.
I agree with you 100 percent.

For an organisation devoted to god it not only allows, but encourages grief and suffering.

The only thing I would say is that there is no chance of a caring realist getting in there. The Vatican is basically like a very old, established political party. Jobs for the boys and no one will be allowed in who might rock the boat.

PD
Dear God in heaven, I would hate it if you did have something personal against me! Nevertheless I will continue to pray for you, until I can find out where you live and hacksaw through the brake-pipes on your Antichristmobiles that is...

Come on, he was a real case of straight up and down and at least you knew where you stood with him. Ok he did meet St Gerry of the Falls Road in 2002 but then he also met Bush, blair, Uncle tom Cobbley and all. As for condoms, AIDS et cetera - what's wrong with continence and faithfulness as an alternative?? Just add willpower...

And before you come back on the what about population explosion, poverty et cetera well one acronym, CAFOD...
 
#19
Soldier_Why said:
woopert said:
Pope Pius 12th took a very hard line in his relations with Hitler, so much so he wanted him killed.
And yet still didn't ex-communicate him??
Hard to ex-communicate a non-Catholic...he didn't ex-communicate Stalin either!
 
#20
Cuddles said:
Soldier_Why said:
woopert said:
Pope Pius 12th took a very hard line in his relations with Hitler, so much so he wanted him killed.
And yet still didn't ex-communicate him??
Hard to ex-communicate a non-Catholic...he didn't ex-communicate Stalin either!
Hitler WAS a catholic. He was baptised a Catholic and was an altar boy.

In 1933 the Vatican signed a Concordat with Germany making Roman Catholicism the only recognized religion in that country.

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" - Adolf Hitler, 1941.

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work. " - Adolf Hitler, 1938.

"Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews . . . The work that Christ started but could not finish, I--Adolf Hitler--will conclude." - Adolf Hitler, 1926
 

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