Poor UK education standards

Yokel

LE
School discipline is easy.

Tie it to benefits.

If you're not employable, no benefits.

Employability could be based on a high school certificate of achievement. Indicating no less than five E grades (or numbers) in English, Maths and three other subjects, an attendance rate of 85% on time, and a discipline record of an acceptable standard.

No certificate? Sounds like you need to go to college and prove that you can turn up and be good and get the required GCSE passes.

Severe miscreants, especially those that hit teachers, should be sent to special schools. Not special departments within schools, get em gone. Away from the family in a residential setting where fast food and e numbers do not make an appearance.

Whilst they're away, the family don't require child benefit or other payments for that child. If they can afford it, contributions to their spawn's upkeep will be gratefully received.
A few problems with that:

1. Some tearaways sort themselves out as they get a bit older.

2. Has the link between food additives been proven?

3. The worst offender at my school was in a residential institution - full of miscreants. Sent to a normal school though.

However, the ability to distinguish between the non academic but well behaved and the disruptive ones would be good.
 
School discipline is easy.

Tie it to benefits.

If you're not employable, no benefits.

Employability could be based on a high school certificate of achievement. Indicating no less than five E grades (or numbers) in English, Maths and three other subjects, an attendance rate of 85% on time, and a discipline record of an acceptable standard.

No certificate? Sounds like you need to go to college and prove that you can turn up and be good and get the required GCSE passes.

Severe miscreants, especially those that hit teachers, should be sent to special schools. Not special departments within schools, get em gone. Away from the family in a residential setting where fast food and e numbers do not make an appearance.

Whilst they're away, the family don't require child benefit or other payments for that child. If they can afford it, contributions to their spawn's upkeep will be gratefully received.
Some of the biggest miscreants I know grew up on estates. Not sure how you discipline someone by stopping their benefits when their parents are paying £30k a year in school fees.
 
A few problems with that:

1. Some tearaways sort themselves out as they get a bit older.

2. Has the link between food additives been proven?

3. The worst offender at my school was in a residential institution - full of miscreants. Sent to a normal school though.

However, the ability to distinguish between the non academic but well behaved and the disruptive ones would be good.
Don't see any problems with that at all.

If they sort themselves out when older they'll get a certificate.

Good hearty food will always be preferable to fast food.

The miscreants will be removed. None of this care in the community rubbish.

If the non-academic apply themselves and are not disrupted by miscreants, and are taught in streamed classes so that they can receive the help they need, they can achieve five Es. E is quite simple really. It's the reading age of about 10.
 
Without reading 2500 posts , Are education standards really lower today ? I`m not so sure , I was "educated" in the seventies in a comprehensive , left with no qualifications at all , that was partly due to having to work on a farm before and after school and also due to the teaching/teacher standards being pretty appalling , teachers just gave up on the harder to reach kids , easy for a teacher to blame the kid , no one will listen to the kid.

Inspiration was the big issue in my opinion , why would you want to learn something if you had no idea what the benefits could be ?

And discipline , control through fear of violence doesn't work and certainly doesn't bring out the best in people , I seen that both at school and in the Legion .Discipline should be gained through respect and inspiration .

For the record since leaving school I`ve obtained two degrees and have run SME`s successfully for decades.

edit - The poor standard of teachers should be resolved before pointing the finger at the pupils .
 
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Without reading 2500 posts , Are education standards really lower today ?
My personal opinion is yes. Subjective as no one can go through the education process twice but in some areas there does seem to be a decline.

Basic numeracy in particular is poor in a lot of secondary students I've met. Quite a few can do complex algebra and find the size of a right angle triangle in terms of a and b but struggle to recognise that 0.3 is bigger than 0.10 (surprisingly common to read 0.3 as 'nought point three' and 0.10 as 'nought point ten').

How much of that is an actual decline and how much is selection bias is a different question. Most of the people complaining about modern kids being thick tend to have been above average themselves and may not have seen the thick kids when they were at school.

It's quite common in some new teachers who have spent their time at school in top sets for every subject and never been in a class with disruptive kids. They seem a bit surprised when they see bottom set Year 11 on a Friday afternoon aren't all that keen on learning and would much rather try and flick bits of paper down the class slag's shirt.
 
Without reading 2500 posts , Are education standards really lower today ? I`m not so sure , I was "educated" in the seventies in a comprehensive , left with no qualifications at all , that was partly due to having to work on a farm before and after school and also due to the teaching/teacher standards being pretty appalling , teachers just gave up on the harder to reach kids , easy for a teacher to blame the kid , no one will listen to the kid.

Inspiration was the big issue in my opinion , why would you want to learn something if you had no idea what the benefits could be ?

And discipline , control through fear of violence doesn't work and certainly doesn't bring out the best in people , I seen that both at school and in the Legion .Discipline should be gained through respect and inspiration .

For the record since leaving school I`ve obtained two degrees and have run SME`s successfully for decades.
It’s a common trope of the old - the decline in standards amongst the young.

“I would there were no age between sixteen and three-and-twenty, or that youth would sleep out the rest; for there is nothing in the between but getting wenches with child, wronging the ancientry, stealing, fighting”
 

bob231

War Hero
Idly curious: a chunk of my schooling was decidedly old-fashioned and involved rote learning. Some of this was pretty deathly and some far less so (General Knowledge quizzes tied to opportunities to win sweets, in a controlled environment meaning sweets were hard to come by).

The long and short of same is that I got to secondary with a very solid grounding in some subjects, making branching out and learning the thinky bits much easier. Are we neglecting the core knowledge to attack the thinky bits earlier?
 

bob231

War Hero
Without reading 2500 posts , Are education standards really lower today ? I`m not so sure , I was "educated" in the seventies in a comprehensive , left with no qualifications at all , that was partly due to having to work on a farm before and after school and also due to the teaching/teacher standards being pretty appalling , teachers just gave up on the harder to reach kids , easy for a teacher to blame the kid , no one will listen to the kid.

Inspiration was the big issue in my opinion , why would you want to learn something if you had no idea what the benefits could be ?

And discipline , control through fear of violence doesn't work and certainly doesn't bring out the best in people , I seen that both at school and in the Legion .Discipline should be gained through respect and inspiration .

For the record since leaving school I`ve obtained two degrees and have run SME`s successfully for decades.

edit - The poor standard of teachers should be resolved before pointing the finger at the pupils .
In a narrowly defined sense - what was required at a set exam level - I have seen this between my science GCSEs and my sister's. Significant rigour fell out of what was already a pretty casual exam, to be replaced with learning of what amounted to anecdata.

This may have changed back since Mr Gove's recent reforms.
 
The long and short of same is that I got to secondary with a very solid grounding in some subjects, making branching out and learning the thinky bits much easier. Are we neglecting the core knowledge to attack the thinky bits earlier?
Probably. The positive bit is the current OFSTED regime seem to be keen to base policy on research rather than ideology or 'common sense'. For anyone who's utterly bored or has insomnia the framework is here - Education inspection framework (EIF)

There is a big push to actually looking at educational and cognitive research and using that to inform teaching. Admittedly it's dressed up in some buzzwords (ie. retrieval instead of remembering) but seems fairly sensible.

One thing cognitive scientists have demonstrated is that probably the biggest factor in learning new information is having existing knowledge to base that on (lots of stuff about schemas) and some rote learning is a good thing. Not for trivial information but basic fundamental knowledge that can then be applied in more complex ways. Memorising the order of monarchs from 1066 onwards is pretty much pointless but knowing your times tables is invaluable for pretty much any applied maths.
 
In a narrowly defined sense - what was required at a set exam level - I have seen this between my science GCSEs and my sister's. Significant rigour fell out of what was already a pretty casual exam, to be replaced with learning of what amounted to anecdata.

This may have changed back since Mr Gove's recent reforms.
Yes and no. There are significantly fewer 'real world' examples and these have been replaced with lots more memorising and pointless technical vocabulary. Chemistry has lost the section on limestone, concrete etc. and has gained a lot of electrolysis terminology. Physics has lost most of the section on static electricity and gained more on the particle model of matter and the need to memorise equations.

However, at the risk of repeating some of my more tedious posts, that is all frankly irrelevant as the grade boundaries for most students are scraping the floor.
 
Felt quite smug frankly when out with SWMBO (retired Primary Senior Teacher) in Tesco...at a safe distance.
Had a nice verbal exchange with parents we know well of 2 late primary aged "My Little Princesses". They have been trying to home educate their little darlings for a few weeks with complete failure to get them to even sit down "In One's Conservatory".

SWMBO assured them they could borrow her weapons grade Lochgelly Tawse (a truly awesome peace-keeping implement.) She actually still has it as a keep sake from the good 'ol days. They declined...and seemed stupid enough to actually believe it was a genuine offer.

Her tactics, with a new post summer class, worked a treat back in the day. Just give the ( known) trouble makers, usually boys, enough rope to hang themselves with a set of 3 substantial warnings over say a couple of weeks, then cross-hand "four of the best". Job jobbed. Never got one complaint...but that was then and look what we have now in the classrooms.

Our own kid got it from Mumsy when he was 11, and he royally deserved it. A little matter of smuggling an air rifle into the house and pigeon popping out his bedroom window. SWMBO likes birds. It was not so much that but the defiance when challenged. I think he bagged a couple and chucked them into a neighbour's garden. I was actually quite proud...but I kept that to myself. Seemed to do the trick. At least he went a good deal less gobby for a few weeks. In any case he ended up doing 2 deployments with better equipment doing a proper job.;)

Any parents out there at the end of their tether?
You can get 'em off Fleabay, but I'd advise Gaffering their gobs first, as they will squeal like stuck pigs especially entitled Starbuck gopping /Iphone/ Snapchat droning / Cant cook-won't cook Millennials who won't bloody leave.
Never too late for a jolly good leatherin' even if it hurts you more than them.
However, when beating them with gusto to maintain their morale, bear in mind they may be choosing your Nursing Home one day
Paging @Ortholith . . . ;) .
 
Funnily enough, I've been using some of this time to make a dent in the stack of unread books. After the discussion on corporal punishment last week I started with this one -

If you think I'm a namby-pamby liberal you should meet this bloke. He not only disapproves of whacking kids but also argues that exclusion and isolating kids is unacceptable. He's also an expert on behaviour that has worked in PRUs, is now a consultant that helps struggling schools fix behaviour problems and advised the government on the teaching standards relating to behaviour.

It was interesting and there are some things I'm going to try when I'm back at work. Maybe my 'kick out the troublemakers' approach is unnecessary.
 
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He not only disapproves of whacking kids but also argues that exclusion and isolating kids is unacceptable. He's also an expert on behaviour that has worked in PRUs,
I'm sure he's knowledgeable but it is unacceptable to allow miscreants to not be isolated.

They are essentially affecting the life chances of other kids.

If they can't behave, remove. When they are feeling better they can come back.
 
I'm sure he's knowledgeable but it is unacceptable to allow miscreants to not be isolated.

They are essentially affecting the life chances of other kids.

If they can't behave, remove. When they are feeling better they can come back.
That's always been my approach as well. His argument is basically that most poor behaviour comes from kids that have not been taught how to behave or emotional problems the kids have not been taught how to manage.

When I first read it I thought he was a soft sandal-wearing social worker type but his approach does seem to work. I can't argue if his methods get results, even if it sounds barking.
 
Funnily enough, I've been using some of this time to make a dent in the stack of unread books. After the discussion on corporal punishment last week I started with this one . . .

If you think I'm a namby-pamby liberal you should meet this bloke. He not only disapproves of whacking kids but also argues that exclusion and isolating kids is unacceptable. He's also an expert on behaviour that has worked in PRUs, is now a consultant that helps struggling schools fix behaviour problems and advised the government on the teaching standards relating to behaviour.

It was interesting and there are some things I'm going to try when I'm back at work. Maybe my 'kick out the troublemakers' approach is unnecessary.
" . . argues that exclusion and isolating kids is unacceptable" . . . as it only demonstrates/illustrates that the main/core system/philosophy, is totally bankrupt.

It doesn't even address the symptoms, and totally ignores the root problem :( .

Didn't need to employ "exclusion and isolating kids" when I were a lad ;) .
 
Not for "Main Stream" children.

"Approved Schools" were for those who had broken some law or other . . .

Irritatingly I can't copy stuff from that link but it doesn't agree with what you're saying, particularly those children which were "in need of care, protection or control, deemed to be 'refractory' in the care of a Local Authority Children's Department or had run away from the care of a Local Authority or a 'fit person'".

Looks to me like if you were naughty enough at school or ran away from home you could be put in an Approved School. Similar to the current system where if you are really consistently badly behaved in school you are removed from "Main Stream" and end up in a PRU.
 
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