Poor UK education standards

Ill phrase it another way, why would kids care about going to a PRU if they are all likely to go there together?

Also once they are there, why would they want to leave once they have made friends there?
I'll repeat from my previous post: Put sanctions in place and enforce them (the key bit) and a lot of the 'middle ground' poor behaviour reduces. If you then get rid of the seriously disruptive ones problem solved. To be honest, I wouldn't care if it wasn't a deterrent at all providing they are no longer preventing other students from learning.

Did this country have a culture of kids queuing up to get smacked so they would get kudos of their mates when corporal punishment was legal?
Who mentioned them queueing up to get whacked?
 
The government decided that children must stay in education or training until 18.
However 50% of the population are below average intelligence, this doesn’t mean that they are mongs, but many are not suitable for higher education. Sadly, we don’t have enough factories/pits/mills/chimneys to absorb them so we have to try and educate them As best as we can.
Many would be pleased to leave school at 15 and get a job, and having the big lads slap them around and nail their boots to the floor might give them a better chance at life they trying to get their heads round algebra and French verbs.
There will always be those who think they’re going to be footballers, games testers, or drug lords, these kids should be rounded up into gangs picking litter to actually earn benefits, maybe then they will appreciate the education they could have had for free.
The cane/belt/ strap is not the answer.
Tazers, however...
 
I'll repeat from my previous post: Put sanctions in place and enforce them (the key bit) and a lot of the 'middle ground' poor behaviour reduces. If you then get rid of the seriously disruptive ones problem solved. To be honest, I wouldn't care if it wasn't a deterrent at all providing they are no longer preventing other students from learning.
Once again you are just passing the problem along,
If they are being disruptive and a smack cures them, why would you go through a long procedure to permanently get rid of them?

Who mentioned them queueing up to get whacked?
I assume they would be if they wanted the status, I dont think they did.
 
That’s the original suggestion.
I was after the bit where operating schools on the basis of criminal gangs didn’t end up with a society that operated like a criminal gang
Keep reading from that link onwards
 
And how's that turning out?
It's turning out as if parents and politicians think they know best, the one because they have working genitalia and the other because their lies were more convincing that another lots.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
It's turning out as if parents and politicians think they know best, the one because they have working genitalia and the other because their lies were more convincing that another lots.
One could also contend that letting the experts have their run has led to a decline in respect and discipline.
 
One could also contend that letting the experts have their run has led to a decline in respect and discipline.
If the education agenda had ever been controlled by the experts then that might very well have been the cause-and-effect link.

Since teachers have long been relegated to sweeping up the aftermath of politicians' pandering, I don't think it is.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
If the education agenda had ever been controlled by the experts then that might very well have been the cause-and-effect link.

Since teachers have long been relegated to sweeping up the aftermath of politicians' pandering, I don't think it is.
Educationalists and behavioural experts have long had an influence.

Combine that with do-gooding pressure to understand and not punish and it’s a poisonous mix.
 
Unless I misinterpreted it earlier in this thread a link was established between the disciplinary procedures in gangs and corporal punishment in school.

Gangs appear to have an effective disciplinary system based on the use of violence and or the threat of violence, it was inferred that the use of violence in schools would have the same result, with the approved method of inflicting the violence being corporal punishment.

However (there is always a however or but) surely in the case of the gangs it is the threat of the violence escalating from its initial lower tariff, a beating say, through the breaking of fingers, legs etc to the ultimate sanction of death that maintains the discipline.

I am unable to see how this system can be transferred to the educational system as it would be stuck in the lower level tariff unless people have in mind some way of escalating the punishment.
 
Unless I misinterpreted it earlier in this thread a link was established between the disciplinary procedures in gangs and corporal punishment in school.

Gangs appear to have an effective disciplinary system based on the use of violence and or the threat of violence, it was inferred that the use of violence in schools would have the same result, with the approved method of inflicting the violence being corporal punishment.

However (there is always a however or but) surely in the case of the gangs it is the threat of the violence escalating from its initial lower tariff, a beating say, through the breaking of fingers, legs etc to the ultimate sanction of death that maintains the discipline.

I am unable to see how this system can be transferred to the educational system as it would be stuck in the lower level tariff unless people have in mind some way of escalating the punishment.
and the reward of being in a gang, often greater than a decent gcse or two.

and the idea a self-selecting group with a disposition to criminality is representative of the population writ large.

it’s as if someone is using a silly example to get a bite.
 
and the reward of being in a gang, often greater than a decent gcse or two.

and the idea a self-selecting group with a disposition to criminality is representative of the population writ large.

it’s as if someone is using a silly example to get a bite.
Given the numbers involved and length of the arguments it’s a hell of an investment in time and effort for a simple bite, though from what I have seen on here you could well be onto something.
 
it’s as if someone is using a silly example to get a bite.
Not really. While stacker is capable of starting an argument in an empty room he's put his points forward, admitted where he's made mistakes and forced me to actually think hard about my ideas. It's been quite a good discussion.

Certainly better than those members who keep smacking the buttons without any sort of explanation ;)

Edit -and once I've sorted out the books I need to drop in to work I'll respond to his latest post.
 
Once again you are just passing the problem along,
Yes. Removing a problem from a situation that does not have the resources to deal with that problem and transferring to a specialist situation.

Have you considered that for a reasonable percentage of troublemakers the poor behaviour is to hide the fact they can't do the work? Not that they are necessarily thick but their poor literacy / numeracy / problem solving / resilience leads them to give up. It is psychologically preferable for some to refuse to try as that way they cannot 'fail'.

If they are being disruptive and a smack cures them, why would you go through a long procedure to permanently get rid of them?
Pretty big 'if' there.

I assume they would be if they wanted the status, I dont think they did.
There's a big difference between punishment being a status symbol and queueing up to be punished. ASBOs were viewed as such when they were first introduced but there weren't queues of teenagers outside the cop shop demanding they get their own ASBO. The same way there are some rappers boasting about being sent to prison or getting shot but they don't seem quite as keen on volunteering to repeat the experience.
 

Chalkythedog

Old-Salt
I give tours to young soldiers around the military museum in which I work and am amazed at how poor their grasp of British history is.

Last week I gave a tour to twenty seven SATT's, of that number only three had ever heard of Field Marshal Montgomery and only one of the Battle of El Alamein. Only two knew we had fought the Japanese during the Second World War. The only one who knew of Arnhem saw it on a film.

Several thought that British involvement in WWII ended with the Battle of Britain and after the Americans joined the War they did all the fighting.

They thought we simply went into our Anderson shelters or the London Underground, ate rations and listened to Vera Lyn whilst the Americans sent a Band of Brothers to Save Private Ryan.

What on earth are they teaching at school?

Cardinal
What they teach at school is . . . . Nothing.
 
What they teach at school is . . . . Nothing.
You're right. They come in, sit down and we play on phones for an hour. Then they go elsewhere for another 5 hours of fun and games.

GCSE and A level results are decided by throwing darts at a set of grades pinned to the wall. Looks like I'm after a new job now that the secret is out.
 
So a smacked arse will miraculously undo years of crap parenting?

Modelling behaviour management and schools on biker gangs might not go down that well with the DfE either.
Interesting comment; Minds me of one occasion when all four of us in a dorm got one from Matron when she copped a booby trapped door, that had been set up so we could get a nights sleep from another raiding dorm. I think I was nine or ten. So we copped it from her for injured pride. Plain fact was it was misbehaviour-generated by other misbehaviour. I don't think the DfE was quite the same then.

But I do take issue with the crap parenting bit. There is no manual for parenting-some manage some don't. Mine by and large did and I still got the occasional whack and I knew what I'd got it for.
 
Once again you are just passing the problem along,
If they are being disruptive and a smack cures them, why would you go through a long procedure to permanently get rid of them?
Back in the day, when a smack with a belt was an acceptable and normal part of schooling, the problem was also passed along.

School ( belt included ) - Special School - Approved School and finally Borstal.

As a recent leaver from the ranks - You should be all too familiar with long procedures to get rid of undesirables.
 
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