Poor UK education standards

Thats what it is at the moment, didnt you suggest making it easier to get rid of the problem children?
Yes. A large part of the issue in my experience is that they keep being told "If you do that again you'll really be in trouble" and then nothing happens. A lot of sanctions are not followed up if the kid doesn't attend. Hence why my first bit was about enforcing sanction policy robustly so they learn cause and effect. For the vast majority of students the situation will stop there.

If it happens all the time, maybe its time to change the procedure.
If you've got suggestions for how to do that be my guest. There is nothing I can think of that would work, could be implemented and could be afforded. To put this in context, I taught two 16 year old girls a few years ago that did not know their alphabet past 'P' and couldn't read a clock. No SEN issues or reason why they couldn't have known it.
Thats not quite true

So 80% do not want corporal punishment in a 2008 survey anyway. I would be interested in seeing the results now, I'd guess at similar numbers but it could be interesting.
 
Sorry - rhetorical. But pointing out the conceit and the fact that it'll never be allowed to happen. The public wants it, most parents would understand it, the teachers and educationalists are against.

Why?
Because we're the ones who would actually have to implement it? The same way that there are occasionally polls about routinely arming all coppers with pistols and the majority of the police say they don't want that, despite public support for the idea.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Because we're the ones who would actually have to implement it? The same way that there are occasionally polls about routinely arming all coppers with pistols and the majority of the police say they don't want that, despite public support for the idea.
Okay, then if not corporal punishment then effective sanction.

If Little Shit is excluded because of his behaviour, and his economic prospects are affected, whose fault is that?
 
Okay, then if not corporal punishment then effective sanction.

If Little Shit is excluded because of his behaviour, and his economic prospects are affected, whose fault is that?
I would argue Little Shit. Before being excluded there are multiple stages to go through (assuming he hasn't just attacked another child with a chisel in a woodwork lesson) and there is always the opportunity to say sorry, accept a sanction and move on. A permanent exclusion at the moment is really quite difficult to put in place and even under my proposed changes would still take a reasonable time to get to.

In my experience setting detentions, speaking to students and discussing why they are in trouble works well enough for most of them. The issue tends to be that there is no causal link for students between action and consequence. Be a ******** on Monday, detention set for Thursday, miss that, longer detention next week Tuesday. By that stage it's lost all meaning and is just a punishment. Hence why I want to see things followed up rapidly so there is that notion of cause and effect visible.
 
Yes. A large part of the issue in my experience is that they keep being told "If you do that again you'll really be in trouble" and then nothing happens. A lot of sanctions are not followed up if the kid doesn't attend. Hence why my first bit was about enforcing sanction policy robustly so they learn cause and effect. For the vast majority of students the situation will stop there.
My point is that the PRUs will be fuller.


If you've got suggestions for how to do that be my guest. There is nothing I can think of that would work, could be implemented and could be afforded. To put this in context, I taught two 16 year old girls a few years ago that did not know their alphabet past 'P' and couldn't read a clock. No SEN issues or reason why they couldn't have known it.
For naughty kids, a whack on their arse, not only might it help them stop being naughty, possibly the class thickies will learn better without distraction.
So 80% do not want corporal punishment in a 2008 survey anyway. I would be interested in seeing the results now, I'd guess at similar numbers but it could be interesting.
I should imagine some teachers are in good schools, certainly most private schools have less problem children, their parents are more likely to take an interest in their investment, some young, new teachers also think smacking is one step down from murder and some teachers are in normal schools far from troubled areas, they probably make up a sizable chunk of the 80%, those in the 20% probably have to put up with the little shits on a daily basis.
 
My point is that the PRUs will be fuller.
Yes. However, I don't think it would be the avalanche of students you're picturing.

I should imagine some teachers are in good schools, certainly most private schools have less problem children, their parents are more likely to take an interest in their investment, some young, new teachers also think smacking is one step down from murder and some teachers are in normal schools far from troubled areas, they probably make up a sizable chunk of the 80%, those in the 20% probably have to put up with the little shits on a daily basis.
Like I said, it would be interesting to do a similar survey now and break it down like you've suggested. I don't think you'd be far off the mark.
 
Yes. However, I don't think it would be the avalanche of students you're picturing.
If they dont care about their education now, why would a threat of a PRU be any different?
 
If they dont care about their education now, why would a threat of a PRU be any different?
They are removed from their friends. Doesn't sound much but is apparently quite a big deal to a lot of teenagers. There would be more kids in PRUs than currently under my idea but probably not the levels you seem to be thinking of. Although my focus is still on the 99.something of kids that can choose to behave reasonably and want to learn.

I could ask the same question of corporal punishment, if the kids don't fear authority figures why are they going to be scared of a whacking, given that probably happens at home for a fair few of the hard to discipline kids? I wouldn't be surprised to see getting the belt as a status symbol, much like ASBOs were when they were first introduced.
 
They are removed from their friends. Doesn't sound much but is apparently quite a big deal to a lot of teenagers. There would be more kids in PRUs than currently under my idea but probably not the levels you seem to be thinking of. Although my focus is still on the 99.something of kids that can choose to behave reasonably and want to learn.

I could ask the same question of corporal punishment, if the kids don't fear authority figures why are they going to be scared of a whacking, given that probably happens at home for a fair few of the hard to discipline kids? I wouldn't be surprised to see getting the belt as a status symbol, much like ASBOs were when they were first introduced.
Their friends will be coming with them
So whats the deterent to them? Like I said, some middle class mommy boy might shit his pants, others wont cate.

Going back to gangs, violence works, the vast majority of kids do not want a smacked arse. Do kids in countries with corporal punishment have kids queuing up to get a status symbol across the arse?
 
So you would like to see society operating like a criminal gang?
Bit weird, if you ask me.
Have you read the rest of the thread where thats already been addressed?
 
Their friends will be coming with them
So whats the deterent to them? Like I said, some middle class mommy boy might shit his pants, others wont cate.
They wouldn't necessarily be with friends. You seem to be focussing on the end stage and missing out the stages to get there. Most kids in my experience want to be in school with their mates, even if they would never admit it. You can spot the ones that have been excluded as they hang around near the gates at break and lunch time. Besides, if the seriously disruptive ones didn't want to be in school they would just bunk off all day and be classed as 'school refusers'.

Put sanctions in place and enforce them (the key bit) and a lot of the 'middle ground' poor behaviour reduces. If you then get rid of the seriously disruptive ones problem solved. To be honest, I wouldn't care if it wasn't a deterrent at all providing they are no longer preventing other students from learning.

Going back to gangs, violence works, the vast majority of kids do not want a smacked arse. Do kids in countries with corporal punishment have kids queuing up to get a status symbol across the arse?
Do those countries have a totally different culture and attitude around corporal punishment? Singapore is the classic example of strict schooling leading to good results but they also apply corporal punishment to adults.
 
They are removed from their friends. Doesn't sound much but is apparently quite a big deal to a lot of teenagers. There would be more kids in PRUs than currently under my idea but probably not the levels you seem to be thinking of. Although my focus is still on the 99.something of kids that can choose to behave reasonably and want to learn.

I could ask the same question of corporal punishment, if the kids don't fear authority figures why are they going to be scared of a whacking, given that probably happens at home for a fair few of the hard to discipline kids? I wouldn't be surprised to see getting the belt as a status symbol, much like ASBOs were when they were first introduced.
Perhaps a few videos of what the little scrotes can expect could be imported from Singapore.


School bully MC whateva losing it at all orifices , in public, and there's another 5 to go.
 
They wouldn't necessarily be with friends. You seem to be focussing on the end stage and missing out the stages to get there. Most kids in my experience want to be in school with their mates, even if they would never admit it. You can spot the ones that have been excluded as they hang around near the gates at break and lunch time. Besides, if the seriously disruptive ones didn't want to be in school they would just bunk off all day and be classed as 'school refusers'.

Put sanctions in place and enforce them (the key bit) and a lot of the 'middle ground' poor behaviour reduces. If you then get rid of the seriously disruptive ones problem solved. To be honest, I wouldn't care if it wasn't a deterrent at all providing they are no longer preventing other students from learning.


Do those countries have a totally different culture and attitude around corporal punishment? Singapore is the classic example of strict schooling leading to good results but they also apply corporal punishment to adults.
Ill phrase it another way, why would kids care about going to a PRU if they are all likely to go there together?

Also once they are there, why would they want to leave once they have made friends there?

Did this country have a culture of kids queuing up to get smacked so they would get kudos of their mates when corporal punishment was legal?
 

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