Poor UK education standards

Yokel

LE
I have no experience in banking, but higher education (as we now call it) has never really been meant to be all that useful.
Apart from Mathematics, Sciences, Engineering, Computer related subjects, Medicine, Dentistry, Veterinary Medicine, Nursing, Law, Psychology, languages...

Have you ever noticed the way high technology industry clusters around Universities? Indeed, the local college of further in my area is very involved in providing training for employees of local business including their apprentices, and that is right up to providing access to Higher Education.

Then there is research and consultancy.

Graduates are meant to have common skills such as the ability to write purposely, numeracy, IT skills, presentation skills, critical thinking skills.....

Rubbish. When I was at school you simply didn’t dare. If the gym masters didn’t fill you in there was always borstal.
That was then. The World is a different place now. The trouble is corporal punishment might be sought by some scroates to make themselves look hard in front of the peers, when actually you want to just want to make them look like a prat.
 
Honestly, it was a mix.
I've had guys with double PhDs, former senior Clarendon Lab guys, who were ridiculously bright, but their brains were wired the wrong way. Very good at constructing models, but very poor at "reading" them, or interpreting the results. Nor are they particularly good at taking and managing risk.
These days I'm out of the mainstream business, and run my own financing company. All headcount are people who used to work for me at banks, who have the aforementioned skills in abundance and, above all, get on with their job quietly and efficienty and are not a pain in the arrse to have around.
Those last two qualities are undervalued.
Yes, yes, yes that's all well and good.
But has it come to fruitation for you yet?
 
Government says: 'HE increases the provision for medicine, nursing etc. and we shall drop the level of student fees for those courses and HMG will pick up the shortfall in funding'. After all, this CV business has shown us that we need medics. There may be other areas which could also use that help - media studies is not one of them.
The problem with that is that clinical education depends heavily on placements within the NHS and it's the number of these available that dictates the number of places you can offer in the pre-clinical years.

Not to mention the onward flow into Foundation Years and specialist training.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
That was then. The World is a different place now. The trouble is corporal punishment might be sought by some scroates to make themselves look hard in front of the peers, when actually you want to just want to make them look like a prat.
I'm not advocating it, necessarily. I'm just saying that you didn't dare.

The point being that they dare now because there's no sanction, or no fear of adequate sanction.
 
And when thrashing them, birching them, and a “cat-o-nine-tails” won’t suffice . . . .

 
pre ‘86 the school leaving age had been raised, this meant that the scunners unsuitable for education (Secondary modern to learn how to work in a factory, or Grammar School for the gifted) could no longer be sent down t‘pit and in t’mill. This was the start of the slippery slope leading to T Blair deciding that every child should go to university. TV and later, tinternet convinced kids that all they had to do was win the Lottery or Britain’s got Talent and they were minted, assuming that a career as a footballer or Games Tester wasn’t offered on a plate.
These kids went on to breed (making babies is so easy that it actually takes some brains to avoid it), rinse and repeat... parents can’t be ärsed (someone else’s problem) so kids grow up without guidance, or parents in many cases...there’s no point beating them, because they probably get that at home and you’re likely to end up in court, or facing half a dozen taxis full of cousins and uncles rocking up if you’re oop north...
Most kids will try their best to achieve their potential despite the chimps flinging shït around the room, and most teachers give their all to facilitate this, sadly, it’s almost impossible to filter out the dross unless they overstep the ‘acceptable level of violence’ so 95% of time will be spent with the undeserving 5% of the students. Until the system changes to allow the (conventially) uneducateable to learn in different ways, it will ever be thus.


My ex wife was a teacher at a reasonable Grammar school when they were abolished and it became a secondary modern. Her time spent keeping order in the class (stopping talking, playing etc) went from a fraction of 1% to, in certain bad classes, almost 50% of her time.
It was a similar scene in parents evenings, where in the Grammar school virtually 100% of at least 1 parent would turn up to discuss the childs progress with in 40 -50 % of the time BOTH PARENTS turning up & asking pertinent questions. It dropped to below 50% of even one parent turning up"
This is the key, if parents don't take any interest in the childs behaviour/education, especially in the growing under class of one parent families with several offspring from numerous different fathers who take no interest/responsibility for them, we are seeing growing problems where these offspring are turning into the numerous gangs of thugs who plague many parts of our inner cities.
The other side of the coin is the growing "entitled" class of often better "educated" kids coming from "woke" parents who have been spoilt/indulged to where being told no is outside of their comprehension as they think they are entitled to do/have what they want irrespective of cost without thinking of consequences!
 
And when thrashing them, birching them, and a “cat-o-nine-tails” won’t suffice . . . .

That actually would work. Those ********* won't produce the next generation of *********.

My ex wife was a teacher at a reasonable Grammar school when they were abolished and it became a secondary modern. Her time spent keeping order in the class (stopping talking, playing etc) went from a fraction of 1% to, in certain bad classes, almost 50% of her time.
It was a similar scene in parents evenings, where in the Grammar school virtually 100% of at least 1 parent would turn up to discuss the childs progress with in 40 -50 % of the time BOTH PARENTS turning up & asking pertinent questions. It dropped to below 50% of even one parent turning up"
This is the key, if parents don't take any interest in the childs behaviour/education, especially in the growing under class of one parent families with several offspring from numerous different fathers who take no interest/responsibility for them, we are seeing growing problems where these offspring are turning into the numerous gangs of thugs who plague many parts of our inner cities.
The other side of the coin is the growing "entitled" class of often better "educated" kids coming from "woke" parents who have been spoilt/indulged to where being told no is outside of their comprehension as they think they are entitled to do/have what they want irrespective of cost without thinking of consequences!
I agree with all of that. I still fail to see how whacking kids will fix the poor parenting the child has experienced its entire life.
 
I'm not advocating it, necessarily. I'm just saying that you didn't dare.

The point being that they dare now because there's no sanction, or no fear of adequate sanction.
True. The solution would be to introduce sanctions that actually work which really isn't difficult. The issue is following up on those sanctions and ensuring that they are treated as cause and effect. Do something naughty, this is the consequence.

Streamlining the exclusion process so that students unwilling to behave in a vaguely civilised way are not kept together with kids that want to learn is a good option. Expanding PRUs and making it easier to put ********* in them temporarily would solve a lot of issues. That costs money though.
 

Yokel

LE
Personally I suspect that schools have improved since the early nineties. They do seem to take things like bully, health and safety, and inclusion seriously.

I remember my school being very reluctant to do anything against a small number of violent and disruptive tests. One of the teachers got pinned against a wall by a scroate, but said scroate stayed at the school.
 

huscarl

Old-Salt
Without googling I give you:
Naseby
Edgeworth
Freedom Field,Plymouth.

I will google now to check
I would've named;
Naseby, (A14 runs through it!) Last Battle of the Civil war and decisive Parliamentarian win.
Edgehill, Draw ( The Battlefield is partly on the site of MOD Kineton).
Roundway, Down, Win for the Royalists ( fantastic views south towards Devizes and on a very clear day SPTA.
 

lextalionis

Old-Salt
Up to a point, possibly, but a convincing argument can be made that the main purpose of higher education is putting and keeping the lower orders firmly in their place, especially so in Britain. With the exception of the post-war decades, it has mostly been about reproducing social stratification.
I am not sure it is. The lower orders are, generally, less bright, less productive and, from an economic perspective, less useful. When I teach the lower orders, it feels like pulling teeth. They are often in the habit of blaming others for their relative lack of success and they usually begrudge and envy others' achievements.

The lower orders keep themselves where they are, no-one else.
 
I read what you wrote. That is categorically NOT the case for the minority of students that cause almost all of the discipline and behaviour issues.

Given that those values are not being instilled before secondary school, how will beating secondary school students magically instil those values? Or is corporal punishment only to be employed against the small children that cannot fight back? I'd call that bullying personally.



Really? That highlights just how unaware you are of the reality. If you threaten a punishment but do not deliver, the threat becomes meaningless.

Crack on with the mong buttons :)
Their parents should be battered for not teaching them how to behave properly in the first place. Not the school's job to teach basic manners.
 

Offa

War Hero
I have a large collection of Boys' Own Annuals and The Captain annuals, mostly from late 19th. to early 20th. century. The fall in educational (literacy and numeracy) standards can be gauged from the contents. A reading ability greater than most current undergraduates is required. I have taught in secondary, tertiary and higher education. The standards of general education, not just literacy and numeracy, but also general subjects such as geography and history (especially British history) is woeful for the majority of undergraduates, who are either 'privileged' or making up the numbers and would be better off with vocational training. However, they are all generally sh*t hot with IT. The books I have referred to were for middle class schoolboys (the Girls' Own Paper catered for girls), with a public school flavour. However, there was a strong aspirational theme throughout and many of lextatlionis's 'lower orders' also subscribed - evidenced by letters to editor. These books are also an excellent resource for students of British sports history - and, of course, social history. If you can get a glimpse of any edition you will be convinced of the decline in educational standards. Then again, think of Hotspur and Rover - my favourite was 'I flew with Braddock', but then I'm old. I wouldn't write-off the 'lower' orders if they can be encouraged through education to be aspirational - they (we) are not all scrotes. But then army service sorted me out.
 
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Personally I suspect that schools have improved since the early nineties. They do seem to take things like bully, health and safety, and inclusion seriously.
Were the stats that bad in the 90s that this is an improvement?

 
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I agree with all of that. I still fail to see how whacking kids will fix the poor parenting the child has experienced its entire life.
Because the the little cnuts wont want a smacked arse.
Ive mentioned this before when people say that corporal punishment doesn't work, how do gangs from football crews to biker MCs, maintain discipline? If violence didn't have any effect there wouldn't be any criminal gangs.
 
.....
I have a large collection of Boys' Own Annuals and The Captain annuals, mostly from late 19th. to early 20th. century. The fall in educational (literacy and numeracy) standards can be gauged from the contents. A reading ability greater than most current undergraduates is required. I have taught in secondary, tertiary and higher education. The standards of general education, not just literacy and numeracy, but also general subjects such as geography and history (especially British history) is woeful for the majority of undergraduates, who are either 'privileged' or making up the numbers and would be better off with vocational training. However, they are all generally sh*t hot with IT. The books I have referred to were for middle class schoolboys (the Girls' Own Paper catered for girls), with a public school flavour. However, there was a strong aspirational theme throughout and many of lextatlionis's 'lower orders' also subscribed - evidenced by letters to editor. These books are also an excellent resource for students of British sports history - and, of course, social history. If you can get a glimpse of any edition you will be convinced of the decline in educational standards. Then again, think of Hotspur and Rover - my favourite was 'I flew with Braddock', but then I'm old. I wouldn't write-off the 'lower' orders if they can be encouraged through education to be aspirational - they (we) are not all scotes. But then army service sorted me out.

Couldn't agree more. I came from a dysfunctional family (Father in the RN, away a lot, and then having to adjust to family life when on leave, later alcoholic. Mother nervous breakdown or three. Brother a thieving shit). I have a comfortable life, letters after my name and I put it down to the sort of books you mentioned that I was given by neighbours (especially Stan the ex-royal marine colour sergeant). My best mate is a Barnardo's Boy. Ran his own building/maintenance company and a bit of millionaire.

The aspirational theme was strong - education was the escape route to a better life.

I feel the generations following through don't seem to have that aspiration because they don't need. They have all been taught that everything is theirs; by right.
 
Because the the little cnuts wont want a smacked arse.
Ive mentioned this before when people say that corporal punishment doesn't work, how do gangs from football crews to biker MCs, maintain discipline? If violence didn't have any effect there wouldn't be any criminal gangs.
So a smacked arse will miraculously undo years of crap parenting?

Modelling behaviour management and schools on biker gangs might not go down that well with the DfE either.
 
So a smacked arse will miraculously undo years of crap parenting?

Modelling behaviour management and schools on biker gangs might not go down that well with the DfE either.
No a smacked arse will stop you wanting another smacked arse so you behave yourself.

My point about criminal gangs is that violence generally works with most people. Its like having a chav family move in your street, the police and council cant control them, a swift kicking will though.

Even 19% of kids in a survey say corporal punishment should be brought back


Maybe they have had enough of bullies getting a "talking to" for beating them up.
 
No a smacked arse will stop you wanting another smacked arse so you behave yourself.

My point about criminal gangs is that violence generally works with most people. Its like having a chav family move in your street, the police and council cant control them, a swift kicking will though.
Yeah, let's model the way we treat children on those paragons of virtue, biker gangs and chavs. That will in no way reinforce that violence is an acceptable solution to problems and encourage them to use violence themselves.

Even 19% of kids in a survey say corporal punishment should be brought back


Maybe they have had enough of bullies getting a "talking to" for beating them up.
Quoting pupils' opinion is generally worthless. I'm willing to bet if you asked them their opinions on chewing gum, homework, lunch hours, uniforms, detentions etc. they'd tell you any old rubbish.

Still, since you're so in favour of this, how would it work?
 
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