Poor UK education standards

Thanks. The bit I don’t understand is do they need to understand the properties and the working of the materials that they envisage using?
Oh how I wish... a good designer will, (RJ Mitchell frinstance) but usually it needs a good engineer to fulfil the design as closely as possible. Alternately, go full Bauhaus at it and the final form is determined by the function (AH 64 Apache...)
”Architects design pretty buildings, Engineers make them stay up”
 

ExREME..TECH

On ROPS
On ROPs
Yes. STEM engagement has to be a priority. The media does a good job of characterising people who study or work in such fields as geeks and weirdos, distorting perceptions and perpetuating the idea that things like Mathematics are not needed and not worth studying.

Not so many years ago I met someone who wanted to become a Teaching Assistant to teach Maths, but had no idea that things beyond arithmetic have practical applications.
Teaching assistant change nappies and clean up the wee
 
Interesting indeed. I found myself next to an Indian guy on a flight last year who insisted on talking to me and telling me that he was a ‘Designer’. You could hear the capital letter...

I’ve often wondered what a ‘Designer’ was so I made the mistake of asking him. 45 minutes later I was none the wiser. I was amazed that someone could speak so long without using a verb.*

Eventually, out of politeness, he asked me what I did. I told him I built drains. He seemed to lose interest in me after that!

I’d still genuinely like to know what one is.

* as my old English teacher said, a verb is a ‘doing word’.
A designer is someone who takes a satisfactory engineering solution and f**ks it up for marketing purposes. The product then fails in the market place and the cost of returns kill the budget for the planned engineering development. Not that I'm bitter at all . . .
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
On the presumption that you mean compulsory education only, the basic skills for socialisation and to be equipped to continue learning on their own throughout life.
Interesting comment. Can more be done to help those children that miss out on aspects of socialisation - such as boys that are not good at sport?

Does anyone know if social media and computer gaming mean teenagers do not get socialised like they did in the past?
I genuinely think that the increasing isolation facilitated by the online existence is behind a lot of the mental problems suffered by an increasing number of youngsters.

SWMBO's nephew's mate killed himself last year. The nephew is on anti-depressants.

We're a herd animal and I think that a lot of current social trends are a real worry.
 
Thanks. The bit I don’t understand is do they need to understand the properties and the working of the materials that they envisage using?
Yes, selecting the right materials is definitely part of a designer's job. Choice depends on the required strength, weight, cost, working life, corrosion resistance, forming and manufacturing. All things for a designer to consider.
 

Yokel

LE
We need to be clear about the difference between aesthetic design and engineering design. One is arty, one is brainy!

I am sure a previous post said schools do a bit of CAD/CAM. That sounds like it could be useful for certain jobs and certain employers. Maybe the practical subjects could be covered in a way that relates to Maths and Science?

Design, build, test, write report, do presentation to class and teachers.
 

Yokel

LE
I genuinely think that the increasing isolation facilitated by the online existence is behind a lot of the mental problems suffered by an increasing number of youngsters.

SWMBO's nephew's mate killed himself last year. The nephew is on anti-depressants.

We're a herd animal and I think that a lot of current social trends are a real worry.
With the lockdown in force, your post seems very poignant. I agree with you, but also think it must be a God send to those who are socially awkward such as the non sporty or 'nerdy' ones.

I recently (alright it was months ago) I went to a second hand book shop and managed to get hold of an American book called The Successful Engineer. The author makes the point that career and social success depends more than anything else - the ability to interact socially. Yet as far as I know, this is not covered formally by any education system.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
With the lockdown in force, your post seems very poignant. I agree with you, but also think it must be a God send to those who are socially awkward such as the non sporty or 'nerdy' ones.

I recently (alright it was months ago) I went to a second hand book shop and managed to get hold of an American book called The Successful Engineer. The author makes the point that career and social success depends more than anything else - the ability to interact socially. Yet as far as I know, this is not covered formally by any education system.
Something which often lost in the race to hit academic targets - that university, for instance, is as much about learning about life as getting a degree.

It's interesting to me how quickly the subconscious adjusts. SWMBO and I have just been watching one of Rick Stein's for odysseys on TV. He was in a market in Istanbul and picking up and handling all types of food while talking to camera and I'm staring at the screen thinking, "FFS, STOP HANDLING THE FOOD!"

Yesterday was supposed to be the annual gathering of my intake. Instead, we had a gathering on Zoom. The technology which facilitates isolation is also, thankfully, helping to address isolation. It's going to be strange though when we all emerge blinking in the sunlight from our various caves.

Life will right itself and we'll all be back to old habits fairly quickly. The big question is when. But it's worth stressing to people that the technology is there and can have a positive effect.
 
Teachers must be sh*tting it now. Parents teaching their offspring :D
Nope, it's ******* awesome. I'm doing a bit more planning than usual as there isn't the option to change tack if the kids don't understand.

However, there's no behaviour management needed, no unannounced management dropins and, probably best, no parental complaints about their child's lack of progress. Once the work has been pushed out online I have the rest of the working day free to mark the work from the previous day and answer the pile of useless emails.

I've finished working at 2pm every day this week (as opposed to the usual 9 or 10pm) and have done nothing this weekend up until now. The tests coming up won't go well but that's not my fault and I can't be blamed for it.

The work being done is on average pretty poor, the learning from that work is minimal and there is going to be an uphill struggle when the kids eventually get back in to a classroom. Until that point, trebles all round :)

Edit - I am sort of hoping for emails from the parents of a couple of difficult kids about how hard it is to get the little bastards to do anything. I will then smile and reply "Well, it must be something you're doing, they do the work in school". A bit of role reversal could be an interesting learning experience.
 
With the lockdown in force, your post seems very poignant. I agree with you, but also think it must be a God send to those who are socially awkward such as the non sporty or 'nerdy' ones.

I recently (alright it was months ago) I went to a second hand book shop and managed to get hold of an American book called The Successful Engineer. The author makes the point that career and social success depends more than anything else - the ability to interact socially. Yet as far as I know, this is not covered formally by any education system.
 

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When my daughter was at university she and some of her friends took it upon themselves to “educate” one of the mathematicians who lived on their staircase in basic social skills. They adjudged themselves successful when he stopped talking to other Mathmos, as they were known and started going out with a girl who he met in a bar all through his own efforts.
He still got a first.
 
Teachers must be sh*tting it now. Parents teaching their offspring :D
More like ’Parents discover they can’t get their solitary feral brat to do anything yet expect teachers to cope with 30 at a time’
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Edit: or ‘teaching‘ them a load of bolleaux that they read on Wikipedia...
 
When all this is eventually over . . . and, the little horrors are back at school . . . might it then be appropriate to consider the (re-)introduction of “corporal punishment” (the threat of the slipper, ruler, whatever), for the most persistent/serious offenders . . . .

Who is going to object?! ;) .
 
When all this is eventually over . . . and, the little horrors are back at school . . . might it then be appropriate to consider the (re-)introduction of “corporal punishment” (the threat of the slipper, ruler, whatever), for the most persistent/serious offenders . . . .

Who is going to object?! ;) .
Almost everyone who actually teaches the little bastards?

Apart from all the moral and legal arguments what that approach teaches them is "If you annoy me I am allowed to hurt you". What do you think is going to happen when Johnny Fucknuts gets told off and angry? Normalising violence will only lead to the kids returning it ten-fold on staff.

This was the situation 2 years ago - Secondary school staff suffer work attacks - over 42 attacks leaving injuries on teaching staff every working day. Something tells me that teaching teenagers the correct response to a bad situation is to batter someone might not improve that statistic :rolleyes:
 
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When all this is eventually over . . . and, the little horrors are back at school . . . might it then be appropriate to consider the (re-)introduction of “corporal punishment” (the threat of the slipper, ruler, whatever), for the most persistent/serious offenders . . . .

Who is going to object?! ;) .
You wonder how many are getting a battering behind closed doors at the moment?
 
Almost everyone who actually teaches the little bastards?

Apart from all the moral and legal arguments what that approach teaches them is "If you annoy me I am allowed to hurt you". What do you think is going to happen when Johnny Fucknuts gets told off and angry? Normalising violence will only lead to the kids returning it ten-fold on staff.

This was the situation 2 years ago - Secondary school staff suffer work attacks - over 42 attacks leaving injuries on teaching staff every working day. Something tells me that teaching teenagers the correct response to a bad situation is to batter someone might not improve that statistic :rolleyes:
It is your “chalk face” . . . so carry-on.

Apologies for harking back to the dark days of 1986 !!

Self discipline, social awareness, personal responsibility, acceptable norms of “good behaviour”, should all have been instilled, encouraged, and established before secondary school.

The argument may be about encouraging self-discipline . . . but, if there are - clearly - no repercussions for NOT behaving, then expect the problems you have now . . . and to which you teachers then subject the greater population, when the feral little sods leave the school gates, for good.

No, I am NOT a teacher, but for the last ten years, I have been transporting those excluded from mainstream schooling, to their designated “Special” places of education.

Those “excluded”, would be the ones with “no limits”; the ones unaware of their personal responsibilities; the ones who have themselves NOW been failed by the liberal, “right-on”, self-expression, personal development, individual fulfilment, that has failed society as a whole - and the individuals - for at least a couple of generations.

 
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lextalionis

Old-Salt
When all this is eventually over . . . and, the little horrors are back at school . . . might it then be appropriate to consider the (re-)introduction of “corporal punishment” (the threat of the slipper, ruler, whatever), for the most persistent/serious offenders . . . .

Who is going to object?! ;) .
It's odd how things change. There was a case in 2010 where a special school argued that a teacher had implicitly consented to being assaulted by choosing to work there and that the little darling was thus not guilty of battery. The Court, thankfully, did not accept it but violence in schools has now gone very much the other way.

It's now hard to impose any form of discipline that doesn't follow a dreary, endless behaviour policy. A number of years ago, during my training, I gave a boy a detention for using homophobic language (after the school had dragged in a Holocaust survivor to urge the boys to think about the evil of hate crimes) but the parents complained and he never served it. I was appalled.

Start with the basics like that and make discipline easy to administer and you wouldn't need the cane or whatever form of beating you prefer.
 
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