Police "Will have to quadruple Armed Response Units".

#61
marco_poloroid said:
I wouldn't issue most coppers a crayon, never mind a personal weapon. And I am one.......
But it's getting more dangerous even for you guys; two coppers have been killed in the line of duty this year. And another one's on life support.
 
#62
Back to the thread: -quadrupling the numbers of ARVs.
Where are they going to come from? The Met is now at an all-time high in establishment, 32000 real time cops let alone the numbers of the non-swimming, non-getting involved in anything plastic imitation numpty PCSOs.
I work in very central London and the chances of seeing any real plod on the street, any of the 32000 at all is minimal. Nobody walks a beat any more, nobody does stop and search, the only plod I actually see on a day to day basis are either:-
a) Whizzing past with blues and twos going not looking anywhere at all on their way to a non-job, letting all the crims know they are on the way and
more visibly
b) The Special Escort Group on their motorbikes blowing whistles, pissing people off whilst whisking Neu Arbeit and numerous hangers-on along their very own cleared VIP lane, a la Moskva in the '80s.
Apart from that in central London, zilch.
So where the fcuk are this lot going to come from?
If I can't see in the most central of central London more than 5 or 6 a day, where are the other 31994 or 5?
 
#63
stoatman said:
As I understand it the situation in the UK is that if you hold a firearms certificate you are barred from becoming an armed police officer, and armed officers are actively discouraged from joining a civilian shooting club.
Did someone in the pub tell you that, because it's bollocks. I've had an FAC for over 15 years and been an AFO for 11. I'm also a member of a clay pigeon shooting club and a target shooting club.

And just a quick one to lay my pedant side to rest - it's CO19 now, not SO. :D
 
#64
hogg said:
stoatman said:
As I understand it the situation in the UK is that if you hold a firearms certificate you are barred from becoming an armed police officer, and armed officers are actively discouraged from joining a civilian shooting club.
Did someone in the pub tell you that, because it's balls. I've had an FAC for over 15 years and been an AFO for 11. I'm also a member of a clay pigeon shooting club and a target shooting club.

And just a quick one to lay my pedant side to rest - it's CO19 now, not SO. :D
More importantly - what's your view on increasing the number of AFO's? Do you think it's necessary and if so, how should they go about it?
 
#65
Werewolf said:
hogg said:
stoatman said:
As I understand it the situation in the UK is that if you hold a firearms certificate you are barred from becoming an armed police officer, and armed officers are actively discouraged from joining a civilian shooting club.
Did someone in the pub tell you that, because it's balls. I've had an FAC for over 15 years and been an AFO for 11. I'm also a member of a clay pigeon shooting club and a target shooting club.

And just a quick one to lay my pedant side to rest - it's CO19 now, not SO. :D
More importantly - what's your view on increasing the number of AFO's? Do you think it's necessary and if so, how should they go about it?
My personal view is that all police in E & W should be armed.
(And before I get an outcry about "Oo I wouldn't trust certain coppers with a gun - f*ck off, I'm an ex scaley and we all had guns there, some were even automatic!)

Initially I would like to see taser rolled out to all operational front line officers (response teams, dogs, support groups TSG, traffic (sorry RPU now) etc, but I think it would be of huge value to change the shape of taser i.e. make it look like a TV remote control, and not a pistol. Taser is a brilliant bit of kit, and sometimes the red dot is enough to control a suspect.

Yes there will be lots of training implications, but there never seems to be a problem in ensuring I have undergone diversity, dynamic risk assessment, media awareness, lifting & handling etc. training.

What if someone does not want/ are unsafe to carry a firearm - move them to a role that is none front line.

Cost - big deal - ask the Met how much the Stockwell incident has cost.

"If the police get routinely armed then the bad guys will too" - In my role I have seized three firearms from routine traffic stops in the last 12 months. 2 were bored out Brococks and the other was a strange Eastern European pistol that analysis suggested would be more risk to the firer than anyone else. I have also been the senior police officer at the initial aftermath of 2 shootings, where we were unsure if te suspects were still on site. This causes me 'great concern' because I want to control a situation here and now, I don't want armed back up getting to me as soon as possible. Pound to a pinch of sh1t that's a bit too long.

Part of the problem is the police are among the biggest bunch of elitist "that's my remit, so f*ck off" people in the country. I also think neighbourhood policing is a huge, imbalanced abstraction of police officers from their primary role. (Interact and engage with the community - use CSO's, not police officers)

These are my views, no one elses.
 
#66
hogg said:
Werewolf said:
hogg said:
stoatman said:
As I understand it the situation in the UK is that if you hold a firearms certificate you are barred from becoming an armed police officer, and armed officers are actively discouraged from joining a civilian shooting club.
Did someone in the pub tell you that, because it's balls. I've had an FAC for over 15 years and been an AFO for 11. I'm also a member of a clay pigeon shooting club and a target shooting club.

And just a quick one to lay my pedant side to rest - it's CO19 now, not SO. :D
More importantly - what's your view on increasing the number of AFO's? Do you think it's necessary and if so, how should they go about it?
My personal view is that all police in E & W should be armed.
(And before I get an outcry about "Oo I wouldn't trust certain coppers with a gun - f*ck off, I'm an ex scaley and we all had guns there, some were even automatic!)

Initially I would like to see taser rolled out to all operational front line officers (response teams, dogs, support groups TSG, traffic (sorry RPU now) etc, but I think it would be of huge value to change the shape of taser i.e. make it look like a TV remote control, and not a pistol. Taser is a brilliant bit of kit, and sometimes the red dot is enough to control a suspect.

Yes there will be lots of training implications, but there never seems to be a problem in ensuring I have undergone diversity, dynamic risk assessment, media awareness, lifting & handling etc. training.

What if someone does not want/ are unsafe to carry a firearm - move them to a role that is none front line.

Cost - big deal - ask the Met how much the Stockwell incident has cost.

"If the police get routinely armed then the bad guys will too" - In my role I have seized three firearms from routine traffic stops in the last 12 months. 2 were bored out Brococks and the other was a strange Eastern European pistol that analysis suggested would be more risk to the firer than anyone else. I have also been the senior police officer at the initial aftermath of 2 shootings, where we were unsure if te suspects were still on site. This causes me 'great concern' because I want to control a situation here and now, I don't want armed back up getting to me as soon as possible. Pound to a pinch of sh1t that's a bit too long.

Part of the problem is the police are among the biggest bunch of elitist "that's my remit, so f*ck off" people in the country. I also think neighbourhood policing is a huge, imbalanced abstraction of police officers from their primary role. (Interact and engage with the community - use CSO's, not police officers)

These are my views, no one elses.
One of the best Posts I've read by a serving police officer.

Nail. On head. Job done. 8)

A very good point about training; if they can find time to train officers in all this PC bullsh1t, they can find the time to train them in important skills as well.

As for cost - well, how much is a human life worth? At least one of the coppers killed in the line of duty this year would be alive today if he had been armed. And I know of at least one instance when a civilian bled out after being shot because there were no AR Officers to escort Paramedics into the killing zone.

I also agree with your assesment of police eliteism: "No-one else can do our job." The problem is that the police themselves are failing to do the job.
 
#67
hogg said:
Werewolf said:
hogg said:
stoatman said:
As I understand it the situation in the UK is that if you hold a firearms certificate you are barred from becoming an armed police officer, and armed officers are actively discouraged from joining a civilian shooting club.
Did someone in the pub tell you that, because it's balls. I've had an FAC for over 15 years and been an AFO for 11. I'm also a member of a clay pigeon shooting club and a target shooting club.

And just a quick one to lay my pedant side to rest - it's CO19 now, not SO. :D
More importantly - what's your view on increasing the number of AFO's? Do you think it's necessary and if so, how should they go about it?
My personal view is that all police in E & W should be armed.
(And before I get an outcry about "Oo I wouldn't trust certain coppers with a gun - f*ck off, I'm an ex scaley and we all had guns there, some were even automatic!)

Initially I would like to see taser rolled out to all operational front line officers (response teams, dogs, support groups TSG, traffic (sorry RPU now) etc, but I think it would be of huge value to change the shape of taser i.e. make it look like a TV remote control, and not a pistol. Taser is a brilliant bit of kit, and sometimes the red dot is enough to control a suspect.

Yes there will be lots of training implications, but there never seems to be a problem in ensuring I have undergone diversity, dynamic risk assessment, media awareness, lifting & handling etc. training.

What if someone does not want/ are unsafe to carry a firearm - move them to a role that is none front line.

Cost - big deal - ask the Met how much the Stockwell incident has cost.

"If the police get routinely armed then the bad guys will too" - In my role I have seized three firearms from routine traffic stops in the last 12 months. 2 were bored out Brococks and the other was a strange Eastern European pistol that analysis suggested would be more risk to the firer than anyone else. I have also been the senior police officer at the initial aftermath of 2 shootings, where we were unsure if te suspects were still on site. This causes me 'great concern' because I want to control a situation here and now, I don't want armed back up getting to me as soon as possible. Pound to a pinch of sh1t that's a bit too long.

Part of the problem is the police are among the biggest bunch of elitist "that's my remit, so f*ck off" people in the country. I also think neighbourhood policing is a huge, imbalanced abstraction of police officers from their primary role. (Interact and engage with the community - use CSO's, not police officers)

These are my views, no one elses.
I'm ex army, currently Met and an ex AFO, and as per the above post, I think all police should be armed, and if there are those who wont accept being armed then there's plenty of paperwork for them to do back at the nick!

Even if, as in PSNI, theyre primarily armed for self defence: if a Specialist Firearms team couldnt get to an incident in time; at least there's another option available for an armed stop.

I think a full scale expansion of the ARV units would be a good thing, (I know DPG and Airports have them now) maybe having an ARV or two on each borough, or have more CO19 bases spread through London like TSG/Traffic have?

Although I have nothing but respect for the ARVs for the job they carry out, it's still a pain in the arrse waiting 10-15 mins for one to arrive after already spending time setting an RVP.

Bad guy's usually gone by then unless it's a containment scenario.
 
#68
hogg said:
Werewolf said:
hogg said:
stoatman said:
As I understand it the situation in the UK is that if you hold a firearms certificate you are barred from becoming an armed police officer, and armed officers are actively discouraged from joining a civilian shooting club.
Did someone in the pub tell you that, because it's balls. I've had an FAC for over 15 years and been an AFO for 11. I'm also a member of a clay pigeon shooting club and a target shooting club.

And just a quick one to lay my pedant side to rest - it's CO19 now, not SO. :D
More importantly - what's your view on increasing the number of AFO's? Do you think it's necessary and if so, how should they go about it?
My personal view is that all police in E & W should be armed.
(And before I get an outcry about "Oo I wouldn't trust certain coppers with a gun - f*ck off, I'm an ex scaley and we all had guns there, some were even automatic!)

Initially I would like to see taser rolled out to all operational front line officers (response teams, dogs, support groups TSG, traffic (sorry RPU now) etc, but I think it would be of huge value to change the shape of taser i.e. make it look like a TV remote control, and not a pistol. Taser is a brilliant bit of kit, and sometimes the red dot is enough to control a suspect.

Yes there will be lots of training implications, but there never seems to be a problem in ensuring I have undergone diversity, dynamic risk assessment, media awareness, lifting & handling etc. training.

What if someone does not want/ are unsafe to carry a firearm - move them to a role that is none front line.

Cost - big deal - ask the Met how much the Stockwell incident has cost.

"If the police get routinely armed then the bad guys will too" - In my role I have seized three firearms from routine traffic stops in the last 12 months. 2 were bored out Brococks and the other was a strange Eastern European pistol that analysis suggested would be more risk to the firer than anyone else. I have also been the senior police officer at the initial aftermath of 2 shootings, where we were unsure if te suspects were still on site. This causes me 'great concern' because I want to control a situation here and now, I don't want armed back up getting to me as soon as possible. Pound to a pinch of sh1t that's a bit too long.

Part of the problem is the police are among the biggest bunch of elitist "that's my remit, so f*ck off" people in the country. I also think neighbourhood policing is a huge, imbalanced abstraction of police officers from their primary role. (Interact and engage with the community - use CSO's, not police officers)

These are my views, no one elses.
Good post. I take back some of what I said :D
 
#69
hogg said:
Part of the problem is the police are among the biggest bunch of elitist "that's my remit, so f*ck off" people in the country. I also think neighbourhood policing is a huge, imbalanced abstraction of police officers from their primary role. (Interact and engage with the community - use CSO's, not police officers)
I'm obviously a biff - I can't quite work out whether you're saying that neighbourhood policing is abstracting police away from the primary role of interacting and engaging with the community; or that all of that community interaction stuff should be left to CSOs, while "real" coppers screech around in Mk1 Granadas, ready to shoot up Minis at traffic lights (after all, it's reassuring to know that things have moved on since Steven Waldorf).

I just can't see how policing can work if the police don't have a consistent TAOR, where they know and are known. The Army's aims of patrolling are fairly clear - gain intelligence, dominate no-mans'-land, destroy the enemy. Focussing on any one of those three at the expense of the others seems a bit daft; why should it be any different for the Police?

PS On the subject of tasers and firearms in the hands of the Police; one thing I would like to see is a solid state camera and microphone that can be strapped to either. It has to record to a memory stick on a rolling loop, switch on once the weapon is loaded / drawn, and save everything from a couple of seconds before any shot to a couple of seconds after. Size of a couple of AA batteries tops, after all every cellphone has the kit to do it.

So, if some chav is trying to claim his actions weren't at all hostile or threatening, he can't claim that he was tasered by some jumpy probationer, and he wants £0000s in compensation. And none of the people with an axe to grind can appear on TV claiming that the police jumped out and shot a bloke in the back without a challenge, or that a table leg couldn't possibly look like a sawn-off. Four or five seconds of video should do it.

Get it right, and you can sell it to the forces as a training tool for School of Infantry - slap a bluetooth connection on it, and a DS can walk over, download your last few shots onto his screen, and take the piss if you weren't aiming properly.
 

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