Police undercount violent crimes

B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#2
Crime figures have been massaged for years. It's not the bobby on the ground who's out there dealing with these 'non-existent' crimes who's at fault, it's the politically motivated management.
 
#3
Statisticians.....cnuts!
 
#5
It's sort of reassuring to think that if some vicious hoodlum was to set about Gordon Brown with a baseball bat, it may be recorded as shoplifting. I'll therefore remain upbeat, and try to take something positive from this bad news.
 
#6
Biscuits is right. Over the years I have been told to record all crimes or to record only what is absolutely necessary. Detection rates have been balanced by being sent out to detect minor crimes to match serious, but undetected ones. All depending upon the political ( in its wide sense) flavour at the time. ovt and police are masters at massageing figures. A good test is, would you use public transport at night?
 
#7
If I understand this correctly, this is based on the British Crime Survey that is little better than an opinion poll.

A better picture of what's happening in this country is given by the violent crime arrest figures published by the Home Office. These show a doubling of the number of arrests for violent offences from 600 thousand to 1.2 million in the past seven years.

Is Ian Blair still trying to tell us that crime in London is so low that people don't bother to lock their doors?
 
#8
Someone I know in the UK was recently forcibly detained in hospital overnight for being drunk and causing crminal damage. On being released the following morning, clearly unarmed, and at 5'10" and about 12 stone, he was grabbed by six waiting policemen and tazered at least twice, before being re-detained under the Mental Health Act.....violent crime? Seems everyone is at it.
 

mercurydancer

LE
Book Reviewer
#9
scrofula

How can that be? no one can be detained in hospital involuntarily apart from it being under the Mental Health Act, or actually under some form of legal arrest. Being drunk and breaking stuff wont do it. There has to be clear signs of being at a risk of himself or others based upon a mental health or dual diagnosis. When the MHA is used, there are checks and balances to prevent such an instance as you suggest. I cant tell from your post if the man has mental health history or if he was injured to such an extent that he was unconscious on admission to hospital, or if it was a Mental Health Hospital or a general one.

I'm not doubting you I just cant see how it fits together. I have known of some instances of people being thrown out of hospital to be arrested on the hospital entrance but not under the MHA. I can imagine a scenario if someone has self-discharged, but that means he wasnt forcibly detained.
 
#10
First off, the 'under recording' is not 'under counting.'

Put simply, that means that the crimes were recorded. No-one has suggested that crimes have not been recorded.

The reality is that the classification depends upon the intent behind the assault, not the level of injury sustained.

Another reality is that only a small number of police forces in England and Wales have been sampled. It's likely that this mis-recording will be much more widespread than stated.
 
#11
Cpl_Clot said:
First off, the 'under recording' is not 'under counting.'

Put simply, that means that the crimes were recorded. No-one has suggested that crimes have not been recorded.

The reality is that the classification depends upon the intent behind the assault, not the level of injury sustained.

Another reality is that only a small number of police forces in England and Wales have been sampled. It's likely that this mis-recording will be much more widespread than stated.
I could fill a library with this subject, never mind write a book about it.

I could talk about attempt burglaries being crimed as criminal damage, because the area has been hammered with burglaries and the crime manager is getting it in the neck. Or I could tell you about the bloke, who after shouting that all police are racist, then called me a f*cking honky. I promptly arrested him for racially aggravated public order. Only to learn later that the CPS dropped that and alternatively charged him with Drunken Disorderly.

Criming Standards. Those two words really don't sit well together. Criming double standards more like.
 
#12
marco_poloroid said:
Criming Standards. Those two words really don't sit well together. Criming double standards more like.
Nevertheless, my point remains; the same number of crimes have been recorded and not as implied, that crimes have gone unreported.

On the subject of Crime Recording Standards, who is to blame in your opinion?
 
#13
marco_poloroid said:
Cpl_Clot said:
First off, the 'under recording' is not 'under counting.'

Put simply, that means that the crimes were recorded. No-one has suggested that crimes have not been recorded.

The reality is that the classification depends upon the intent behind the assault, not the level of injury sustained.

Another reality is that only a small number of police forces in England and Wales have been sampled. It's likely that this mis-recording will be much more widespread than stated.
I could fill a library with this subject, never mind write a book about it.

I could talk about attempt burglaries being crimed as criminal damage, because the area has been hammered with burglaries and the crime manager is getting it in the neck. Or I could tell you about the bloke, who after shouting that all police are racist, then called me a f*cking honky. I promptly arrested him for racially aggravated public order. Only to learn later that the CPS dropped that and alternatively charged him with Drunken Disorderly.

Criming Standards. Those two words really don't sit well together. Criming double standards more like.
Believe me, many crimes go unreported. In a totally unscientific straw poll style way, ask your friends whether they have been the subject of crime. Then ask whether they bothered to report it. The results may surprise you.
With regard to crime reporting itself, the police are much more ethical about whether to actually record a crime or not. It is very very difficult NOT to crime an incident in my force area. Generally, if a crime is reported and te officer has no reasonable grounds to doubt the authenticity of the incident, then the officer will crime it.
Who do I think is to blame for the mis-reporting? The central govt imposed targets which have encouraged distortion of crime levels in the country as a whole. Kids throwing eggs at a bus being recorded as criminal damage for example. Common sense decisions and discretion for officers being taken away would be another reason.
The other issue to consider is the world of difference between charging standards and recording standards. The first being decided by the police, the latter being decided by the CPS. Talk about pulling in different directions.
 

mercurydancer

LE
Book Reviewer
#15
Thank you scrofula that makes a lot of things much clearer.

The guy was bailed. I'm not a police officer but I would imgaine that some form of mental health assessment would have been done at the police station and on his bail and release.

I may be (!) a cynic but some peeople do try to claim false illness to avoid spending time in a cell. I dont know, his injuries or illness may have been real. The admission to the hospital wasnt for psychiatric reasons as the hospital isnt a mental health trust. His intended self-discharge(which hospital staff cant really overrule) is important. It shows he has capacity. It may be that hes kicked off in hospital, he's discharged himself and the staff have alerted the police to intervene at the hospital door. This is by no means unusual. If there is a dual diagnosis, that is mental health and drug or alcohol related issues, then the MHA would apply.

I'm not allowed a taser in my hospital as it is well known that I would immediately use it on senior managers who say things like "stakeholders" and "focus groups"
 
#16
marco_poloroid said:
Believe me, many crimes go unreported. In a totally unscientific straw poll style way, ask your friends whether they have been the subject of crime. Then ask whether they bothered to report it. The results may surprise you.
Oh. I doubt that I'd be surprised about the level of apathy towards the reporting to the police but that is a totally different matter.

I don't know how long you have been in the job but the standards of reporting now are much better than they were 30 years ago.

Yes they are still open to "adjustment" but it's much harder than it once was. There is much more transparency and accountability nowadays.

CPS don't decide recording standards, those are set by central government.

If CPS decide charging standards, that's because that decision and the decision to proceed were taken away from police. Both decisions, again, were made by central government(s) responding to "public opinion" as espoused by the media.

What we have now is one target-driven body handing over one area of responsibility to another target-driven body, one with an even narrower set of targets (convictions versus acquittals).

We get the justice we deserve.
 
#17
Cpl_Clot said:
marco_poloroid said:
Criming Standards. Those two words really don't sit well together. Criming double standards more like.
Nevertheless, my point remains; the same number of crimes have been recorded and not as implied, that crimes have gone unreported.

On the subject of Crime Recording Standards, who is to blame in your opinion?
What makes you so sure of that one then. I wouldn't dare to provide evidence to the contrary but I would go as far to say that things have gone un-crimed. I know because I was the victim of one of them.

Mis Criming and under reporting has been going on for years and will continue to go on. Much to my distaste. If forces got Chief Cons who were at the end of their career and not looking for a job in the Met/NPIA/ACPO afterwards they would be more inclined to be honest and cough that the situations is as sh1t as we all know it is.

Insteat the figures are fiddled so the boss can move on and the Chief Super Nintendo's can move up.

Its a Fcuking Farce but its true - No point denying it.

Contrary to my usual comments. Its something I've noticed the CPS are on side with. They spot the offence for what it is not what its been crimed as, as it doesn't effect their figures.
 
#18
rockpile said:
Biscuits is right. Over the years I have been told to record all crimes or to record only what is absolutely necessary. Detection rates have been balanced by being sent out to detect minor crimes to match serious, but undetected ones. All depending upon the political ( in its wide sense) flavour at the time. ovt and police are masters at massageing figures. A good test is, would you use public transport at night?
I sometimes have no real choice. It can be quite worrying but is not (generally) as bad as it is painted (I accept that this will vary depending upon where you live). If I use the train the transport time is about 20 mins walk and 6 mins train ride, car time is usually 10 mins 1 way aprox 1 Hr the other. I would rather not use private transport.

In a way I would like to see the abolition of private motor transport. This would do several things: Get decent working people back on the streets and public transport, enable car parks to be turned into parks/social housing/whatever, bring back neighbourhood identity etc. Well. At least I think it is worth a try.

I would also like to see government removed from their isolated/protected lives and live among the people they are supposed to represent.

/Rant!
 
T

trowel

Guest
#19
The police will always go for the easy option when attempting to achieve their arrest and conviction rates.
 
#20
MercuryDancer, I can immediately see your professionality. I know a few more details about this case that were not in the press, and can agree that the bloke in question should undoubtably have been detained for his own safety, not necessarily the public's. Six officers? And tazered? I can assure you, knowing him, even berzerk, I could have dealt with him alone, and I'm a little, not alot. smaller than he is. This is an ongoing case...I could refer you to an article from the same newspaper from 3 days ago about assaults on bus drivers in Brixham by chavs and complete police ambivalence, nay absence. But six of them can turn up to tazer a streak of urine aged 46. That's what gets me, and ultimately will get the police around the UK a big compensation bill. The old Bill? Nah, the new one, the one in cash for not doing the job properly.
 

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