Police selection, training and operations: can all police officers use force effectively?

And a new thing in the mix, Monkey Dust, what a fearsom effect that has on people.
That does look fun from the videos I have seen on Tube of You.

Every generation has it's lunacy; crack was fun (fighting idiots on it, I mean not doing it).

But to be fair, a good old fashioned Psychotic breakdown is still a challenge without drugs.

Sole time I used my baton in self-defence was on a guy suffering a mental health incident. I was in the back of an ambulance when it all went wrong, and beween my stick and resorting to open handed stuff when i lost my baton in the fight; I turned it into the inside of a jam sandwich.

Fortunately no complaint ever came of it, and it just became another morning my then girlfriend found me home off nights quietly drinking Jack Daniels and looking out the window thinking.

If I was TASER equipped (but no one was back then) maybe I wouldn't have had to injure him that much.

Spend some money, assaults on police decline and use of force declines. Pretty simples really.

And no matter how much "Police:Now" tries to turns the job into a sociology degree, bad people won't do what they are told sometimes. And when example, persusasion and argument have failed - all that remains is the lawful argument of force.

Law, without force, is impotent
Pascal.
But what do I know. PMTM and her SPADs clearly know more than me.

 
Ah..... my self-denying ordinance didn't last. This is going to be a helpful post rather than my usual "TJF". I have a rather unique insight into this, having been investigated and stood a jury trial for an on-duty use of force incident. I was facing years in prison, and had to wait for the jury to come back to clear me. Focused the mind somewhat.

1/ Some are, some aren't. On both counts.

2/ You are having a laugh, aren't you?

3/ Officer Safety Training is focused on the safe restraint of a suspect. If you say "combat", you are laying yourself open to massive cross-examination issues at trial, and potentially talking yourself into prosecution or at least discipline.

4/ I was told by trainers during Officer Safety training whilst I was still in, that they had been told by officers they would rather be injured and go to hospital than use their baton. This was because they feared the post-incident investigation.

I am in minority of officers to stand trial over use of force (excuse me drawing a veil over the precise details for reasons of PERSEC). During this, I witnessed an utter prejudgement of my circumstances by the Senior Management Team as well as a level of incompetence from the "Department of Professional Standards" which would not have been tolerated if it was directed at a public facing inquiry.

Now, I survived; albeit with a few scars.

Post that incident, I returned to duty and spent over a decade on uniform and CID and had my share of roll-a-arounds and used my baton once in self defence. I applied for TASER training due to the risk I was exposed to in one role, but voluntarily withdrew from one job I applied for because I was told I would require to be armed for personal self-defence (this was a non-ARV role within CID).

I withdrew from that not because of the risk from the criminals, but because I had no confidence in my bosses. They would, I believe, hang me out to dry the moment it was in their interest to do so.

For example, the officer safety dudes at my farce knew of my personal training in martial arts (Judo, Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Krav Maga) and jokingly referred to me as "The Israeli" on my once a year OST refresher.

But, I had a serious agreement with them that if I was on the wrong end of a use of force complaint; they were to make no reference at all to my extra-curricula hobbies. The moment you admit in court to any level of capability, the barrister who is trying to advocate against you will try to turn it against you.

The only defence against your own side is utter procedural correctness and a cheap bic*


In my late 30s/early 40s I was outrunning probationers who lost suspects and taking them down for them. I did chuckle at that.

Part of my leaving was realising

(a) what I dinosaur I had become,
(b) alientation from the job due to the public narrative from PMTM,
(c) alienation from the morons who I had to call "Sir" or "Ma'am",
(d) the realisation that I did not have to do this for a living.

Since leaving, I have ended up in a couple of confrontations (not my fault) with local oiks who don't like it when I ask them to go smoke their drugs elsewhere. It wouldn't occur to me to dial 999, as the response time is dreadful where I am.

Now, I am quite happy. Or as I pointed to my outraged other half, I am not a police officer anymore. I don't have to worry about double jeapardy and lessor standards of proof to do me on a discipline charge. If I ever have to resort to full-contact diplomacy, all I have to worry about being "beyond all reasonable doubt" as to my resort to force in self-defence.

The current cops are on a hiding to nothing. And Mrs May has created the lack of resources and the intellectual climate that has hot-housed this problem.

The only winners are criminals.

*even if the OST guys also joked I was the DC most likely to go "Jason Bourne" and stab an attacker with a biro.

Nice post.. 'They don't like it when you join in with their banter.'
 
Mate, there is no way that the seniors in the police will concede that due to lack of numbers the use of force policy has to account for that.

Before I left, I heard calls where there was a "man with a knife" and the nearest TASER unit was a 20 minute blue light run away. The solution, "visual containment" of the suspect.

Back in in the day (*swings lamp*) I took out an idiot with two knives as it turned out, with a similar response time for TASER. I had been instructed by the force control room not to approach, but I had Body Armour on and the unpredictable chap was in a residential area. Better he met me than mr or mrs public.

Now I got away uninjured and without a significant legal issue - but I had been instructed to wait out. Had I been legally challenged I imagine that instruction would have been put to me in court, and then a picture of "Reckless DC Boumer" charging in decking people would have been painted.

Remember this guy?

PC Joshua Savage charged with assault and criminal damage | Daily Mail Online

He got stuck on for smashing a window, and they were so desperate to pot him they stuck him on for possession of a bladed or sharply pointed object (his leatherman, which I think almost every operational cop carries something like that!).

he was acquitted, and the Independent Office of Police Conduct immediately reacted to the not guilty verdict by insisting a discipinary hearing was held.*

http://camdennewjournal.com/article...er-smashing-car-windscreen-in-queens-crescent

The s3 Criminal Law Act hasn't changed since 1967 - what has changed is the senior management team's appetite for risk. And when it comes to their career it is zero. That and the public's baying for a head on a pole when it suits.

Genuinely had to conduct a pre-planned firearms warrant without armed support because the Superintentdent coudn't be bothered to do the forms for SO19 (as was then) support.

We recovered a combat shotgun and cartridges, from the raid in the end. What particularly annoyed me was said Super was an ex-SO19 Chief Inspector, who made sure he left his ballistic vest on display in the corner of his office so we all knew how "ally" he was.

I used to take pleasure commenting how the vest covered the wide yellow streak down his back.

So no, I had and have no confidence in the Senior Management Team of the police. Which had a operative effect on my eventual decision to resign.

*Conveniently these are on the lower threshold of "on the balance of probability" rather than "beyond all reasonable doubt". Never let a not-guilty verdict get in the way of achieving the right result, even if the jury gets it "wrong" eh?!
Thanks for the risks you took; if there was a knife wielding nutter on my street I'd far rather the copper on the spot dealt with it b before the Mrs and nipper wandered out into a situation waiting for some resource to rock up from the other side of the county. Why don't you stand in the next PCC election? Be interesting to see how many people voted for someone who's walked a beat over the political apparatchicks.
 
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Thanks for the risks you took; if there was a knife wielding nutter on my street I'd far rather the copper on the spot dealt with it b before the Mrs and nipper wandered out into a situation waiting for some resource to rock up from the other side of the county. Why don't you stand in the next PCC election? Be interesting to see how many people voted for someone who's walked a beat over the political apparatchicks.
As to my chum with a knife, It was the job I joined to do. I did it to the best of my ability. Thanks, but it really was just a bad day at the office. And to be honest, I enjoyed the adrenaline. Probably shouldn't admit it, but I joined to be the reason bad people feared the dark and doors coming off hinges.

As to the PCC; Not a chance.
I spoil my ballot paper and enter it in the box to make it clear I believe voting is a duty, but that the PCC is a waste of time and money.
 
Probably shouldn't admit it, but I joined to be the reason bad people feared the dark and doors coming off hinges.
And that should be the stock answer to 'So why do you want to join the police?'
 
One of SLTs biggest whinges is about officer sickness levels.
If only there was some scientifically proven method of improving general health, fitness, team bonding and reduced vulnerability to illnesses and stress. Exercise I believe they call it. With a lot of officers even an hour a week would make a massive difference and circuit training in a local park costs nothing.
Instead we’re apparently going to get a ‘wellness’ campaign which will consist of gems such as fruits good for you and being an alcoholic isn’t. For which the Met have probably paid an outside firm millions.
 
One of SLTs biggest whinges is about officer sickness levels.
If only there was some scientifically proven method of improving general health, fitness, team bonding and reduced vulnerability to illnesses and stress. Exercise I believe they call it. With a lot of officers even an hour a week would make a massive difference and circuit training in a local park costs nothing.
Instead we’re apparently going to get a ‘wellness’ campaign which will consist of gems such as fruits good for you and being an alcoholic isn’t. For which the Met have probably paid an outside firm millions.
Happens all the time - I got in for a shift recently, went to a call and a combination of stress, fatigue, lack of sleep and the duty bug that was doing the rounds meant when I got back to the nick my body just shut down. I saw the Sgt who promptly sent me home for the rest of the cycle. I was, to use a medical term, 'Fucked'.
 
As I have said previously, we are “just keeping our head above water”. This was a quote from a Superintendent who was interviewed on a Panorama documentary a few months ago. He was the District Comd for the Leeds area.

2 to 3 more years of negative funding and we will be on the precipice of being unfit for purpose.

IMHO it would take about 5 years to get back to where we should be if sufficient funding was provided straight away.

Statistics watchdog rebukes Theresa May over police funding claims
Sadly it would seem to me that even if the Budget was doubled tomorrow, there would be little change. The Core Ethos of Policing has been so undermined across the management structure and their excess of self serving governance, by those who either have no spine or are politically indoctrinated.

Together with the judiciary that increasingly leans towards the criminal not the victims and with Prisons and the Prison service no longer being able or willing to be a place of punishment primarily but with rehabilitation only for those who can be rehabilitated.

Sadly also the societal changes that insist that equality of outcome and fairness based on 'Fcuk no's what' should be a priority... There will be little change. I hope to be proved wrong.

TLDR.
Today's left leaning liberals don't understand that criminals wont follow the rules and don't care about them or there fluffy society other than viewing it as a 'easy mark' and will take what they want.
 
. The Core Ethos of Policing has been so undermined across the management structure and their excess of self serving governance, by those who either have no spine or are politically indoctrinated.
Ironically when I was in, the Sgt's exam was referred to as the half lobotomy and the Inspector's as the full lobotomy.

Personally, I am highly suspcious that the direct entry cadres were to function as a blood transfusion to get rid of L'Ancien Régime and ensure a "leadership" utterly wedded to the new order.

They'll probably last longer than the Police Now or Direct Entry DC's.

Speculation was that the idea was a PC's career would be about 7 years, deffo less than 12, and there would be regular turn over of juniors.

Shame about all that experience, but hey: Healthy Churn!
 
I’d love to be a police officer in the USA. You get paid a decent amount of money to drive a big V8 car with an Armalite in the boot and when you shoot coloured people in the face you get an afternoon off, a handshake and a general sense of good achievement.

In this country you get paid **** all by Treason May, drive a diesel Astra with a gay pride sticker on the bodywork, arrest people for typing things on Twitter and attend diversity meetings chaired by the people that you should be shooting in the face.
 
2. What can be done in terms of training and selection to ensure that suitably assertive and street-wise people are joining the police?
This would require a complete turn around in the thought process at the very top of the ladder. The Police are not interested in recruiting 'street-savvy' recruits. They are more concerned with recruiting officers who are university graduates, rather than people with real life skills and experience.
 
I’d love to be a police officer in the USA. You get paid a decent amount of money to drive a big V8 car with an Armalite in the boot and when you shoot coloured people in the face you get an afternoon off, a handshake and a general sense of good achievement.

In this country you get paid **** all by Treason May, drive a diesel Astra with a gay pride sticker on the bodywork, arrest people for typing things on Twitter and attend diversity meetings chaired by the people that you should be shooting in the face.
Talking of which, I walked past a police station today:

_20180819_214926.JPG


Bugger all police about but the rainbow flag filled me with confidence. They are not even flying the Union Flag. I think the 'Pride' flag is in that space.
 
We have pretty much given up phoning the police. Unless someone has got violent, and even then we tend to give up after 2 hours and throw whichever bellend we have caught out the back door.
Including some of merseyside polices 10 most wanted not once but twice.

Chris Noon here
Police reveal 10 most wanted men on Merseyside as part of ‘Operation Hunted’

Chris Atherton

Man wanted in connection with Christmas Eve burglary

Atherton and the police were the joke of town while putting out appeals for info on his where abouts, 2 different people snapped photos of him walking passed the copshop.
On 2 different days, both ran into the police station and by the time someone answered the front desk bell he was long gone.

Both times I have caught the above two, I have had the same conversation about "How sir do you know they're wanted?"

Well I am looking at his picture in todays echo from your appeal he's admitted it's him (Noon) and I have known him his entire life ( Atherton ) plus his mum lives two doors away from me.

Ring back, closing shop, it's been 2 hours letting them go Now... can't wait any longer.

Do that, shut shop and go home. Get a call 0100 in the morning asking do I still require police attendance (Atherton) FFS.
With Noon the next afternoon a pcso attended to view CCTV to confirm it was him.
Merpol is properly fúcked.
No one wants to deal with lifters even for serious amounts of theft, FPNs occasionally or RJs for thefts of £500+
Had a guy recently, recognised him from company retail crime alert so could tie him to dozens of other thefts all in the hundreds.
Filled a trolley with Bollinger, Taittinger, Lanson, Mumm... Basically all the top shelf Champagne. £1344 quid it totalled.

Released on license in May, should be straight back to jail and do not pass go.
Plus all the other offences to throw at him.
Fuçking RJ, he apologized to the manager and off he popped. He's still pinging up on our system for similar thefts. As he left he had the biggest shit eating grin.
We complained about that one. "It was deemed appropriate due to issues of manpower due to Saints being at home".

We were amazed to get attendance on Friday, but we think it was because so many members of public rang 999.
Still only forty minutes pinning him down in the doorway.
PicsArt_08-19-09.40.31.jpg

He was actually arrested!!! Hand cuffed the lot ... Nearly fell off my chair in amazement.
Gave a statement, still waiting for CCTV to be picked up. Still waiting for update from the Bobby.
Meanwhile the ******** on the floor had Asda off for a bag full of legs of lamb today according to the guards info sharing group set up by a pcso in her own time and barely supported by her bosses.

Retail crime is down apparently in this area.

Nope we just don't report most of it to police, because there's simple not enough cops available, and those left are dispirited and poorly motivated. With the shīt over the last decade who can blame them.
 
Back in the 1930's, Glasgow was the most violent city in the UK, with the infamous Razor Gangs fighting pitched battles in the streets. One of the responses from Strathclyde police was to recruit new officers from the rural Highlands, men who had grown up doing heavy manual labour. The end result was a group of officers who knuckles were calloused from dragging on the ground as they walked. The type of copper who looks as though he's been recruited from the local zoo, shaved and stuffed into an XXL uniform.

They were often stationed in large, "removal vans" near areas that the gangs liked to meet. As soon as a brawl kicked off, the coppers would steam in and hit everyone not wearing a uniform. Once they had received the necessary medical treatment, prisoners could expect to meet a very unsympathetic judge, followed by a long, all expenses paid holiday in the delightful Bar L. And back then, if you were sentenced to 10 years, then with good behaviour you would be out in...10 years.

Of course, such robust enforcement of the law is, sadly, not an option these days.
My dad used to speak in awe of the big Hielan bobbies-------He was not in a razor gang.
 
The Met in my case lost all the evidence---------- Video(CD) statements,photos---------Had to do it all again-----now over a year since incident------ court case has now been postponed/cancelled/ not taken place 5 times in the last 6 weeks.

Try phoning a cop shop------ NO CHANCE---- what happened to the desk officer/duty sgt?
 
Every team seems to have one of those, not necessarily female, either.

I had a male colleague lock himself in when we encountered a nutter with a baseball bat.
The time honoured technique of burying chummy under a pile of coppers proved as successful as ever. We all received minor cuts and bruises. No participant, including the prisoner, required anything beyond a once-over by the police surgeon. However, my operator called an ambulance off his own bat, for himself., asked for the duty psychiatrist at St. Thomas's A&E, and went sick with PTSD for a month having 'witnessed violence'.
The annoying part was management going along with it, giving him light duties and counselling for a year, and that was pre-May.
Fortunately, management yanked back their pink and fluffy cushion when he tried for an ill-health pension and early retirement after four years service.
He now has pips on his shoulders and has something to do with recruitment and training.

Jobs f*cked!
He needs to be the victim of a Full Metal Jacket-style beating with soap wrapped in towels.
I’d say he was lacking in moral fibre and courage and is fundamentally dishonest. He should’ve been fecked off after the ambulance incident. Promoting the twat is ridiculous.

Also, why do so many dumpy, unfit, unattractive women think that the police will benefit from their presence?
 

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