• This is a stand-to for an incoming competition, one of our most expensive yet.
    Later this week we're going to be offering the opportunity to Win £270 Rab Neutrino Pro military down jacket
    Visit the thread at that link above and Watch it to be notified as soon as the competition goes live

Police selection, training and operations: can all police officers use force effectively?

#81
One issue here seems to be the understanding of "reasonable" force for a copper effecting an arrest (or the public in self defence). Too often, it is taken as minimum force. We need to reconsider this, and treat is as "as much force as you have a reason for". In other words, if you are single crewed and need to deck a guy in order to restrain him before his mates turn up, you should feel confident that your superiors will back you and if needs be you will be defended in court because you had a reason for your decision. Even if part of that decision was the shortage of other officers to back you up because of the ridiculous scale of spending cuts. (Notes that the need for austerity still doesn't seem to have extended to MP's expenses).
 
Last edited:
#82
2 dreaded words....equal opportunities.

When I joined the Met in ‘89, there were very specific physical requirements that along with the academic element of the recruiting process, had to be passed.

The phys was a piece of pish. 1.5 miles saunter around the track in 13 mins. A few sit ups and press ups, a grip test and a flexibility test. Not exactly AACC. Yet despite the ease of these mandatory tests, some couldn’t pass them. However, because they met certain recruiting criteria such as ethnic minority groups or/and female, they were told that they would be accepted but must meet the standard by the time they pass out of Hendon. Come the end of basic (20 weeks) some still couldn’t run a few laps, but because the job had by now invested a shite load of money in them, they passed out to division.

Of course, the equal ops thing that meant that you could no longer say that a copper had to be at least 5’9 (5’6” for plonks) and had to be of a certain weight and physique, meant that ANYONE could become a copper, hence the clusterfook it has now become.

Add to that the useless PCSO that has effectively removed the beat duties constable who tended to be a probationer, and the job has created its own perfect storm of fookedupness.
 
#83
2 dreaded words....equal opportunities.

When I joined the Met in ‘89, there were very specific physical requirements that along with the academic element of the recruiting process, had to be passed.

The phys was a piece of pish. 1.5 miles saunter around the track in 13 mins. A few sit ups and press ups, a grip test and a flexibility test. Not exactly AACC. Yet despite the ease of these mandatory tests, some couldn’t pass them. However, because they met certain recruiting criteria such as ethnic minority groups or/and female, they were told that they would be accepted but must meet the standard by the time they pass out of Hendon. Come the end of basic (20 weeks) some still couldn’t run a few laps, but because the job had by now invested a shite load of money in them, they passed out to division.

Of course, the equal ops thing that meant that you could no longer say that a copper had to be at least 5’9 (5’6” for plonks) and had to be of a certain weight and physique, meant that ANYONE could become a copper, hence the clusterfook it has now become.

Add to that the useless PCSO that has effectively removed the beat duties constable who tended to be a probationer, and the job has created its own perfect storm of fookedupness.
Any truth to the story that they deliberately pegged the fitness standard to what they believed a fifty year old woman would be capable of achieving instead of working out what level of capability the job would actually require?
 
#84
Any truth to the story that they deliberately pegged the fitness standard to what they believed a fifty year old woman would be capable of achieving instead of working out what level of capability the job would actually require?
The JRFT is 5.4 on the bleep test, no idea what’s it’s meant to be for a fifty year old woman but probably isn’t far off.
 
#85
One issue here seems to be the understanding of "reasonable" force for a copper effecting an arrest (or the public in self defence). Too often, it is taken as minimum force. We need to reconsider this, and treat is as "as much force as you have a reason for". In other words, if you are single crewed and need to deck a guy in order to restrain him before his mates turn up, you should feel confident that your superiors will back you and if needs be you will be defended in court because you had a reason for your decision. Even if part of that decision was the shortage of other officers to back you up because of the ridiculous scale of spending cuts. (Notes that the need for austerity still doesn't seem to have extended to MP's expenses).
Mate, there is no way that the seniors in the police will concede that due to lack of numbers the use of force policy has to account for that.

Before I left, I heard calls where there was a "man with a knife" and the nearest TASER unit was a 20 minute blue light run away. The solution, "visual containment" of the suspect.

Back in in the day (*swings lamp*) I took out an idiot with two knives as it turned out, with a similar response time for TASER. I had been instructed by the force control room not to approach, but I had Body Armour on and the unpredictable chap was in a residential area. Better he met me than mr or mrs public.

Now I got away uninjured and without a significant legal issue - but I had been instructed to wait out. Had I been legally challenged I imagine that instruction would have been put to me in court, and then a picture of "Reckless DC Boumer" charging in decking people would have been painted.

Remember this guy?

PC Joshua Savage charged with assault and criminal damage | Daily Mail Online

He got stuck on for smashing a window, and they were so desperate to pot him they stuck him on for possession of a bladed or sharply pointed object (his leatherman, which I think almost every operational cop carries something like that!).

he was acquitted, and the Independent Office of Police Conduct immediately reacted to the not guilty verdict by insisting a discipinary hearing was held.*

http://camdennewjournal.com/article...er-smashing-car-windscreen-in-queens-crescent

The s3 Criminal Law Act hasn't changed since 1967 - what has changed is the senior management team's appetite for risk. And when it comes to their career it is zero. That and the public's baying for a head on a pole when it suits.

Genuinely had to conduct a pre-planned firearms warrant without armed support because the Superintentdent coudn't be bothered to do the forms for SO19 (as was then) support.

We recovered a combat shotgun and cartridges, from the raid in the end. What particularly annoyed me was said Super was an ex-SO19 Chief Inspector, who made sure he left his ballistic vest on display in the corner of his office so we all knew how "ally" he was.

I used to take pleasure commenting how the vest covered the wide yellow streak down his back.

So no, I had and have no confidence in the Senior Management Team of the police. Which had a operative effect on my eventual decision to resign.

*Conveniently these are on the lower threshold of "on the balance of probability" rather than "beyond all reasonable doubt". Never let a not-guilty verdict get in the way of achieving the right result, even if the jury gets it "wrong" eh?!
 
#86
The issue of the risk aversion of senior officers seemed to come to a head in the London riots when police seemed to avoid confronting rioters. With the caveat of only being able to rely upon TV and YouTube videos, police were often watching rioters rather than confronting them.
After a few days, I had the impression that the police had been given instructions to end the riots and to act more assertively. I don't know if that's an accurate impression on my part.
Anyway, a video was shown on the evening news of some officers in riot gear encountering some youths on cycles. The youths received a short but enthusiastic kicking. The newsreader then said that the Met was investigating the police officers involved in the incident. I was stunned. Of all times when a degree of assertion was needed! I never heard the outcome of the investigation. I hope it was quietly dropped.
 
#88
Any truth to the story that they deliberately pegged the fitness standard to what they believed a fifty year old woman would be capable of achieving instead of working out what level of capability the job would actually require?
That’s about right.
They were concerned that people couldn’t meet the already pathetic phys, so instead of saying ‘must try harder’, they lowered the standards for everyone else....cause that’s fair.
So the standard is set to the lowest common denominator rather than to the sometimes extreme physical requirements of the job...

So, sirs and ma’am’s of the decision making variety, you’re a bunch of utter throbbers who threw the police FORCE under their own staff car, just so that they can be seen to play the PC card at the next promotion board, thus ensuring a much nicer pension...thank you very much indeed.
 
#89
An old friend of mine has just kicked Gwent police into touch. He got sick of the lack of support from senior coppers and management, and professional standards investigating everything to the max trying to pin stuff on people to essentially justify their existence.

He reckons it's the best thing he's ever done. He had a row with his inspector, dropped his warrant card on the desk and told the bloke to poke his job up his arse! Quit there and then.
Outstanding investigation etc, he's told them its not his concern as he no longer works for them and please Foxtrot Oscar.
 
#90
#91
As I have said previously, we are “just keeping our head above water”. This was a quote from a Superintendent who was interviewed on a Panorama documentary a few months ago. He was the District Comd for the Leeds area.

2 to 3 more years of negative funding and we will be on the precipice of being unfit for purpose.

IMHO it would take about 5 years to get back to where we should be if sufficient funding was provided straight away.

Statistics watchdog rebukes Theresa May over police funding claims
 
Last edited:
#94
#96
2 dreaded words....equal opportunities.

When I joined the Met in ‘89, there were very specific physical requirements that along with the academic element of the recruiting process, had to be passed.

The phys was a piece of pish. 1.5 miles saunter around the track in 13 mins. A few sit ups and press ups, a grip test and a flexibility test. Not exactly AACC. Yet despite the ease of these mandatory tests, some couldn’t pass them. However, because they met certain recruiting criteria such as ethnic minority groups or/and female, they were told that they would be accepted but must meet the standard by the time they pass out of Hendon. Come the end of basic (20 weeks) some still couldn’t run a few laps, but because the job had by now invested a shite load of money in them, they passed out to division.

Of course, the equal ops thing that meant that you could no longer say that a copper had to be at least 5’9 (5’6” for plonks) and had to be of a certain weight and physique, meant that ANYONE could become a copper, hence the clusterfook it has now become.

Add to that the useless PCSO that has effectively removed the beat duties constable who tended to be a probationer, and the job has created its own perfect storm of fookedupness.
Back in the 1930's, Glasgow was the most violent city in the UK, with the infamous Razor Gangs fighting pitched battles in the streets. One of the responses from Strathclyde police was to recruit new officers from the rural Highlands, men who had grown up doing heavy manual labour. The end result was a group of officers who knuckles were calloused from dragging on the ground as they walked. The type of copper who looks as though he's been recruited from the local zoo, shaved and stuffed into an XXL uniform.

They were often stationed in large, "removal vans" near areas that the gangs liked to meet. As soon as a brawl kicked off, the coppers would steam in and hit everyone not wearing a uniform. Once they had received the necessary medical treatment, prisoners could expect to meet a very unsympathetic judge, followed by a long, all expenses paid holiday in the delightful Bar L. And back then, if you were sentenced to 10 years, then with good behaviour you would be out in...10 years.

Of course, such robust enforcement of the law is, sadly, not an option these days.
 
#97
That’s about right.
They were concerned that people couldn’t meet the already pathetic phys, so instead of saying ‘must try harder’, they lowered the standards for everyone else....cause that’s fair.
So the standard is set to the lowest common denominator rather than to the sometimes extreme physical requirements of the job...

So, sirs and ma’am’s of the decision making variety, you’re a bunch of utter throbbers who threw the police FORCE under their own staff car, just so that they can be seen to play the PC card at the next promotion board, thus ensuring a much nicer pension...thank you very much indeed.
I’m surprised the standards are allowed to be set so low on H&S grounds. Surely there would have to be some scientific basis for fitness standards as in “we’ve looked at all the rigorous tasks an officer may be required to do and after extrapolation of all the factors, the minimum fitness requirements are xy.”
I know that in the fire service, research was carried out with amongst others, the university of Bath, the results of which stated that an operational firefighter was required to have a VO2 max of 42.2 or they were adjudged to be at risk of suffering a serious cardiac event at work whilst undertaking some of the most rigorous tasks.
 
#98
Things did not seem to be going as well as hoped for in terms of training for the direct entry mob at the Met. either:

Every single recruit for new police officer recruitment programme fails exam because they were unable to use HANDCUFFS

Might almost think it hadn't been though through properly.....
Do the Police run their own training or has it been outsourced to the lowest bidder?

That is rather negative.
I have every confidence that these two examples of British 'Bobby' will be able to go-all-ninja in a nanosecond.

(I am not sure if their jackets are undone because they are undisciplined scruffs, or because they are just too over-weight to do up the zippers?)
Women in uniform - check
Dark hair - check
Glasses - check
Mmmmmmmmmmmm
 
Last edited:
#99
A Taser costs £1400. To equip every frontline officer is prohibitively expensive, add to this 3 days initial trg and yearly refresh. Shifts are approaching a half of what they used to be, every day away on trg is less cops on the ground.

That video is old and I doubt that you would see that many anymore and Taser would have been used nowadays undoubtedly.

The Police in this country have become what politicians and the media have forced them to become, working in fear of spurious complaints and prosecution. Over politicised and excessively regulated and surveilled.

Why would anyone risk their livelihood when they know that being seen to be too robust and violent will lead to 18 months of vilification and potential imprisonment if someone dies or is injured.

What we need is a Royal Commission into Policing, to allow this country to decide what we want from our Police and what we are willing to pay for it. We haven’t had a Royal Commission since 1960.


Police are leaving voluntarily in droves at the moment, something I’ve never previously seen before.
And a new thing in the mix, Monkey Dust, what a fearsom effect that has on people.
 
And a new thing in the mix, Monkey Dust, what a fearsom effect that has on people.
We then have to consider “excited delirium” when restraining and dealing with offenders who are high on stimulants and alcohol. Not only are they exceptionally strong and impervious to pain, they also have a tendency to go into cardiac arrest and die whilst being restrained or in police custody.

Also junkies and dealers who try to swallow packages of drugs and then choke to death whilst you try to detain them.

Not an IOPC investigation you want to find yourself on the end of.
 

Latest Threads

Top