Police selection, training and operations: can all police officers use force effectively?

#61
Their jackets are undone because they have got carry vests on rather than kit belts. Do the jacket up and you can't reach your kit. If you know you'll be outside for ages -say foot patrol on a saturday night - the best thing is to take off the vest and put the hi viz on then vest on top. - otherwise you just sling your jacket on for the short time you need it.
So are you saying that their PPE donning procedure requires improvement or is the kit not that great? I’ve noticed recently that some forces who used the hi-viz vest seemed to have gone back to using black ones.
 
#62
Their jackets are undone because they have got carry vests on rather than kit belts. Do the jacket up and you can't reach your kit. If you know you'll be outside for ages -say foot patrol on a saturday night - the best thing is to take off the vest and put the hi viz on then vest on top. - otherwise you just sling your jacket on for the short time you need it.
Thank you for the explanation. :)

I have never been stood on a short cordon before so I will blame the skipper and guv'nor as well.
 
#63
Edited to add, those blokes are CRS, a 13,000 strong standing force of “Riot Police”, something the U.K. doesn’t have.
For whom the phrase “round up the usual suspects” isn’t an ironical statement, but more of a mission statement. And, IIRC, also like raping male suspects with their batons...
 
#64
A Taser costs £1400. To equip every frontline officer is prohibitively expensive, add to this 3 days initial trg and yearly refresh. Shifts are approaching a half of what they used to be, every day away on trg is less cops on the ground.

That video is old and I doubt that you would see that many anymore and Taser would have been used nowadays undoubtedly.

The Police in this country have become what politicians and the media have forced them to become, working in fear of spurious complaints and prosecution. Over politicised and excessively regulated and surveilled.

Why would anyone risk their livelihood when they know that being seen to be too robust and violent will lead to 18 months of vilification and potential imprisonment if someone dies or is injured.

What we need is a Royal Commission into Policing, to allow this country to decide what we want from our Police and what we are willing to pay for it. We haven’t had a Royal Commission since 1960.

Police are leaving voluntarily in droves at the moment, something I’ve never previously seen before.
Society gets the police that they deserve...
 
#65
Well I don't know which community these fellers are reflecting other than some gay utopia, but I'd rather coppers looked like this than the fat-arsed, high-vizzed wendies I usually encounter.

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Amen to that.

Many many moons ago, I treated my then beloved to a week in Montpellier in France. Regrettably, the only accommodation we could get at short notice was a Novotel, but it served our purposes well. Said Novotel was being used as to accommodate dozens of CRS types (to this day I have no idea what they were there for). To say it was wall-to-wall eye candy for my bint is one way of putting it.
 
#66
I met them many years ago and they did not mess about. Am I correct in thinking that when they have no rioters to play with they become traffic cops, thus being France's most hated while Clouseau can remain warm and cuddly?
I was specialist CT IED search team at Wimbledon Tennis in 1992 when the Borough Commander for the area decided he could save money by having us all bring in our Beat uniforms and do traffic points after the morning IED sweep.
His cunning scheme lasted less than a day.
I was posted on a junction in Wimbledon Village and had an arrest within five minutes for stolen tax disc. It was a similar tale with the rest of the team. After he was charged and bailed I was back on the traffic point for only half an hour when I had a ticket tout off. I was slow, the rest of the team were already booking their next prisoners in.
On standby (card school) for the rest of the fortnight.

Those CRS boyos must enjoy waving their arms about for hours and hours in all weathers, then. ;)
 
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#68
As others have said officers run from those who borderline collapse in a heap and piss themselves at confrontation to honeybadgers who’ll happily fight anyone at the drop of a hat.
Sadly managers don’t do enough to grip, action plan and sack the useless because it’d leave them even shorter on team and it’s too much work.
Worst example I’ve personally seen was a TASER equipped officer’s operator lock herself in their car after he’d got out as she didn’t fancy coming with us to find a bloke walking about with an axe.
 
#70
As others have said officers run from those who borderline collapse in a heap and piss themselves at confrontation to honeybadgers who’ll happily fight anyone at the drop of a hat.
Sadly managers don’t do enough to grip, action plan and sack the useless because it’d leave them even shorter on team and it’s too much work.
Worst example I’ve personally seen was a TASER equipped officer’s operator lock herself in their car after he’d got out as she didn’t fancy coming with us to find a bloke walking about with an axe.
Were there any consequences for her?
 
#74
I was specialist CT IED search team at Wimbledon Tennis in 1992 when the Borough Commander for the area decided he could save money by having us all bring in our Beat uniforms and do traffic points after the morning IED sweep.
His cunning scheme lasted less than a day.
I was posted on a junction in Wimbledon Village and had an arrest within five minutes for stolen tax disc. It was a similar tale with the rest of the team. After he was charged and bailed I was back on the traffic point for only half an hour when I had a ticket tout off. I was slow, the rest of the team were already booking their next prisoners in.
On standby (card school) for the rest of the fortnight.

Those CRS boyos must enjoy waving their arms about for hours and hours in all weathers, then. ;)
Cor, I haven't seen a copper doing a point for years. I'll never forget, back in the days of proper yellow band traffic wardens, there was one I used to encounter regularly on The Mall, working the junction with Marlborough Rd (?) He obviously enjoyed doing it and was very, very good at it.

No, I had heard somewhere that they did the screaming about with blue lights, nicking for speeding, being British and other road traffic offences - that sort of traffic cop.
 
#75
Nope. She’s predominantly used for cordons and other jobs that PCSOs used to do but occasionally has to be let out as she moans.
Jesus. Pretty serious failure by management to deal with a problem by the sound of it. Moving or avoiding the issue is v common these days and must make those who are there for the right reasons wonder why they bother.
 
#76
Jesus. Pretty serious failure by management to deal with a problem by the sound of it. Moving or avoiding the issue is v common these days and must make those who are there for the right reasons wonder why they bother.
I only know of one person who was regulation 13’d (told their services are no longer required during their probation) after a 3.5 year probation (it’s supposed to be 2) and he was dangerously incompetent and should have been let go far sooner.
Sadly plenty just get passed on or signed off as it’s less work and grief due to the risks of being accused of some form of -ism if you stick someone on.
 
#77
Were there any consequences for her?
Every team seems to have one of those, not necessarily female, either.

I had a male colleague lock himself in when we encountered a nutter with a baseball bat.
The time honoured technique of burying chummy under a pile of coppers proved as successful as ever. We all received minor cuts and bruises. No participant, including the prisoner, required anything beyond a once-over by the police surgeon. However, my operator called an ambulance off his own bat, for himself., asked for the duty psychiatrist at St. Thomas's A&E, and went sick with PTSD for a month having 'witnessed violence'.
The annoying part was management going along with it, giving him light duties and counselling for a year, and that was pre-May.
Fortunately, management yanked back their pink and fluffy cushion when he tried for an ill-health pension and early retirement after four years service.
He now has pips on his shoulders and has something to do with recruitment and training.

Jobs f*cked!
 
#78
Amen to that.

Many many moons ago, I treated my then beloved to a week in Montpellier in France. Regrettably, the only accommodation we could get at short notice was a Novotel, but it served our purposes well. Said Novotel was being used as to accommodate dozens of CRS types (to this day I have no idea what they were there for). To say it was wall-to-wall eye candy for my bint is one way of putting it.
CRS (suitably qualified ones) also serve as beach lifeguards 'maitre-naguers' when not required for abdul twatting duties.
 
#79
Though one news story has prompted this post, I am also taking into account similar stories, seen over the course of several years, which make me wonder:

1. Are all police officers able - physically and in terms of mental attitude - to effectively use force to subdue suspects?

2. What can be done in terms of training and selection to ensure that suitably assertive and street-wise people are joining the police?

3. Is there a focus in police training on the 'restraint' of suspects as opposed to possible 'combat' with a suspect? (is that even a valid distinction?).

4. Do police officers believe they will be supported by their superior officers if they have to, for want of a better word, get into a fight to subdue a suspect?
Ah..... my self-denying ordinance didn't last. This is going to be a helpful post rather than my usual "TJF". I have a rather unique insight into this, having been investigated and stood a jury trial for an on-duty use of force incident. I was facing years in prison, and had to wait for the jury to come back to clear me. Focused the mind somewhat.

1/ Some are, some aren't. On both counts.

2/ You are having a laugh, aren't you?

3/ Officer Safety Training is focused on the safe restraint of a suspect. If you say "combat", you are laying yourself open to massive cross-examination issues at trial, and potentially talking yourself into prosecution or at least discipline.

4/ I was told by trainers during Officer Safety training whilst I was still in, that they had been told by officers they would rather be injured and go to hospital than use their baton. This was because they feared the post-incident investigation.

I am in minority of officers to stand trial over use of force (excuse me drawing a veil over the precise details for reasons of PERSEC). During this, I witnessed an utter prejudgement of my circumstances by the Senior Management Team as well as a level of incompetence from the "Department of Professional Standards" which would not have been tolerated if it was directed at a public facing inquiry.

Now, I survived; albeit with a few scars.

Post that incident, I returned to duty and spent over a decade on uniform and CID and had my share of roll-a-arounds and used my baton once in self defence. I applied for TASER training due to the risk I was exposed to in one role, but voluntarily withdrew from one job I applied for because I was told I would require to be armed for personal self-defence (this was a non-ARV role within CID).

I withdrew from that not because of the risk from the criminals, but because I had no confidence in my bosses. They would, I believe, hang me out to dry the moment it was in their interest to do so.

For example, the officer safety dudes at my farce knew of my personal training in martial arts (Judo, Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Krav Maga) and jokingly referred to me as "The Israeli" on my once a year OST refresher.

But, I had a serious agreement with them that if I was on the wrong end of a use of force complaint; they were to make no reference at all to my extra-curricula hobbies. The moment you admit in court to any level of capability, the barrister who is trying to advocate against you will try to turn it against you.

The only defence against your own side is utter procedural correctness and a cheap bic*


In my late 30s/early 40s I was outrunning probationers who lost suspects and taking them down for them. I did chuckle at that.

Part of my leaving was realising

(a) what I dinosaur I had become,
(b) alientation from the job due to the public narrative from PMTM,
(c) alienation from the morons who I had to call "Sir" or "Ma'am",
(d) the realisation that I did not have to do this for a living.

Since leaving, I have ended up in a couple of confrontations (not my fault) with local oiks who don't like it when I ask them to go smoke their drugs elsewhere. It wouldn't occur to me to dial 999, as the response time is dreadful where I am.

Now, I am quite happy. Or as I pointed to my outraged other half, I am not a police officer anymore. I don't have to worry about double jeapardy and lessor standards of proof to do me on a discipline charge. If I ever have to resort to full-contact diplomacy, all I have to worry about being "beyond all reasonable doubt" as to my resort to force in self-defence.

The current cops are on a hiding to nothing. And Mrs May has created the lack of resources and the intellectual climate that has hot-housed this problem.

The only winners are criminals.

*even if the OST guys also joked I was the DC most likely to go "Jason Bourne" and stab an attacker with a biro.
 
#80
There you go then. The solution to the UK's policing problem: a 15,000-strong force of chisel-jawed, taut-buttocked handsome feckers. Where do I sign?
 

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