Police selection, training and operations: can all police officers use force effectively?

#41
Things did not seem to be going as well as hoped for in terms of training for the direct entry mob at the Met. either:

Every single recruit for new police officer recruitment programme fails exam because they were unable to use HANDCUFFS

Might almost think it hadn't been though through properly.....
This fills me with a modicum of hope. Someone is trying to maintain standards.

I envisage that training team being pulled in by an office bound Chief Inspector and being told that the failure is down to them and not the recruits and that financially more if not all of them need to pass.
 
#42
The deterioration in standards in the police is being mirrored in the army. Pressure is placed on Commanders from The MOD to recruit, retain and pass more with the holy grail of tapping into diverse communities as the answer to all recruitment problems.

Retention revolves around pandering to the requests of the less robust to make their lives better. This costs money and impacts elsewhere.
 
#44
#45


I suspect the lead copper probably got the usual interview sans biscuits for not calling out a warning first
 
#48
The deterioration in standards in the police is being mirrored in the army. Pressure is placed on Commanders from The MOD to recruit, retain and pass more with the holy grail of tapping into diverse communities as the answer to all recruitment problems.

Retention revolves around pandering to the requests of the less robust to make their lives better. This costs money and impacts elsewhere.
Diversity is not just being promoted as an answer to recruitment. There has long been a mantra from the powers that be that public bodies must reflect the community they serve. This is a view so overly simplistic, it’s positively child like in my opinion. Moreover, it doesn’t necessarily equate to better working practices or indeed productivity. I think in many cases, efficiency is demonstrably worsened by slavishly adhering to such policies and pushing the logic of such policies to their ultimate natural conclusion, that should mean that public bodies like the police in less diverse areas should be able to set their own diversity policies or opt out of them completely. Clearly that doesn’t happen. Like many of the policies born out of political correctness, when challenged with cold, hard logic or pushed to simple conclusions, they fail.
In order to create what I like to call Disney world public services where anyone and everyone is not only invited to apply but actively encouraged to do so no matter how unsuited to the job role they may be, we see the inevitable dropping of standards to accommodate such irrational policies. But hey as long as it makes the political class and the liberal elite feel warm and fuzzy, what price efficiency?
 

MrBane

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
Reviews Editor
#49
Though one news story has prompted this post, I am also taking into account similar stories, seen over the course of several years, which make me wonder:

1. Are all police officers able - physically and in terms of mental attitude - to effectively use force to subdue suspects?

2. What can be done in terms of training and selection to ensure that suitably assertive and street-wise people are joining the police?

3. Is there a focus in police training on the 'restraint' of suspects as opposed to possible 'combat' with a suspect? (is that even a valid distinction?).

4. Do police officers believe they will be supported by their superior officers if they have to, for want of a better word, get into a fight to subdue a suspect?

The news story that prompted this post is below. I should make it clear that I don't blame the officers but equally they need to be 'winning' such confrontations or they will lose control, if it is not already being lost.
Effective policing relies upon many things (effective community relations, public goodwill, resources, etc) but the police edge is in the necessary use of violence to enforce the law. When violence needs to be used, the police must win.
Public amusement at ineffective policing erodes the authority of the police. Much as the actions of the bystanders in the video are bad, seeing the police losing a physical confrontation is very concerning.
The role of social media means that filmed examples of police 'losing' are given much more exposure. There is a highly viewed video on YouTube of (literally) 20 Met police officers being needed to arrest one bloke with a machete. It is embarrassing to watch: an example of risk aversion taken to extremes and also a situation where many people would find the lack of assertion by the police concerning.

Police slam cheering public as man escapes

And the 20 vs 1 video:


In the second video well, the suspect isn't shot and the police are not harmed. That's good but the number of police seemingly needed to achieve that outcome however...
******* shitbags. :D

I and many of my colleagues have been in knife scenarios, and you're well within your rights to smash his head in. The guy that went for the arm should've gone for the head - which you're allowed to do. It's a red zone, and so it can only be justified where there's a threat to life - which there was there.

One of our lads dealt with a guy wielding two knives on a busy main street about four years ago, and gave the guy about ten solid strikes to the head, it required surgery in hospital afterwards, but he was fully justified and supported.

In Scotland, we've rolled out about 500 STO's (Taser), which makes these scenarios a lot easier to handle, but yeah, when it comes to weapons up here you're fully supported to go for it.

In terms of all officer being equal - it's the same as the army. They're not.

Just as I had soldiers freeze under contact or practically shit it, you get cops that do the same. You don't know until the event how they'll react, but you just manage it as best you can. Besides, someone who's gone into shock and frozen is a good meatshield. :p
 
#50
I generally agree with all of the above. This.....like a lot of the problems with modern policing.....is complex.
We are reaping the results of recruiting more academically minded people who are used to thinking things through. A fight isn't like that. One of the phrases used by our better trainers is 'allow yourself to be violent'. A concept some people struggle with. Particularly as we have spent years trying to be fluffy and socially aware.
The fitness requirements are woeful. The ability to run at a fairly slow pace for three and a half minutes...with no strength testing element....doesn't replicate the type of fitness needed.
People fear injury. To themselves. To the subject. And the consequences of that. But a short, very violent, confrontation is often less injurious to everyone involved. But you need to learn that, or be taught it. Back to inadequate training.
There is a definite need for thinkers in the police....but there will always be pubs full of fighting pikeys.....so there is also a need for more 'robust' officers.
It is a sad reflection on society that people would rather film an event like this rather than trying to assist.
Everybody has the same training but whereas some are fighters, ie, your 'robust' types, some are ditherers in the face of violence, despite the training, and others are runners.... the runners are also the ones who take the scenic route to calls involving violence...in short, coppers are human.

'Pub full of Pikeys', Been there, The Derby Arms on Epson Downs, Relief manager threatened into serving free booze and not closing up.
1am-ish, young 'flier' , a graduate (in political science) on the advanced promotion path, was the night duty inspector for Epson and called one carrier from the district support unit (One sergeant and six constables with shields and helmets) to evict 100+ boozed up Travellers.
We did tell him that he needed at least three more carriers, and his own officers, but would he listen?
I know I went in through the door, but I certainly came out through where a window had very recently been, in a semi-controlled sort of fashion. :D
He believed us, then.

So, 'Robust', and 'Thinkers', but you need the non-academic type of thinker
 
Last edited:
#51
Glen Road "travellers" camp early morning, searches for stolen goods , behind one of the buildings two of us found a stack of car parts under a tarp , two locals appeared one known as Tiny, about 6 inches taller than me and built like a brick shithouse . He grabbed a spade and lifting it threatened to take my head off. As we were in a corner we had no chance to move away ,mate started calling for help n the radio , options as I tried to talk him down, and he started to get more aggressive were take out my baton and make him angry or what I did, Ronnie Ruger from the holster and aimed at centre mass "would you shoot me, would you fecking shoot me" "put the spade down" "Would you shoot me" "Yes put it fecking down" as I cocked the hammer "OK ,OK no need for that now !"
Back up arrived , Tiny arrested very quietly and prosecuted for threats to kill, got two years.
Going had to hand with him would have turned very messy .
 
#52
There has long been a mantra from the powers that be that public bodies must reflect the community they serve.
Well I don't know which community these fellers are reflecting other than some gay utopia, but I'd rather coppers looked like this than the fat-arsed, high-vizzed wendies I usually encounter.

87925.jpg
 
#53
Well I don't know which community these fellers are reflecting other than some gay utopia, but I'd rather coppers looked like this than the fat-arsed, high-vizzed wendies I usually encounter.

View attachment 346796
They look very approachable. I could imagine them building up a great rapport with an abused child or someone who needed empathy and support to provide an account of a particularly unpleasant crime against them.

Think outside the box will you, we have different cops for different jobs.

As a matter of interest, the population of France is a couple of million more than U.K. but they have nearly twice as many cops as us. They can afford to have cops who look like action man stood around.

You get what you pay for.

Edited to add, those blokes are CRS, a 13,000 strong standing force of “Riot Police”, something the U.K. doesn’t have.
 
Last edited:
#54
Diversity is not just being promoted as an answer to recruitment. There has long been a mantra from the powers that be that public bodies must reflect the community they serve. This is a view so overly simplistic, it’s positively child like in my opinion. Moreover, it doesn’t necessarily equate to better working practices or indeed productivity. I think in many cases, efficiency is demonstrably worsened by slavishly adhering to such policies and pushing the logic of such policies to their ultimate natural conclusion, that should mean that public bodies like the police in less diverse areas should be able to set their own diversity policies or opt out of them completely. Clearly that doesn’t happen. Like many of the policies born out of political correctness, when challenged with cold, hard logic or pushed to simple conclusions, they fail.
In order to create what I like to call Disney world public services where anyone and everyone is not only invited to apply but actively encouraged to do so no matter how unsuited to the job role they may be, we see the inevitable dropping of standards to accommodate such irrational policies. But hey as long as it makes the political class and the liberal elite feel warm and fuzzy, what price efficiency?
Be bloody hard pushed reflecting the "prison community" that we serve which is 40% non white.
We're in rural Norfolk & the only non white staff we've recruited over the last few years have either resigned or been sacked & are awaiting trial.
 
#55
Think outside the box will you, we have different cops for different jobs.

As a matter of interest, the population of France is a couple of million more than U.K. but they have nearly twice as many cops as us. They can afford to have cops who look like action man stood around.
Which is why I'm sometimes baffled when it boils down to two fat-arsed wendies, way out of their depth, outside Shitbag's night club on a Friday night - two WPC specials out of a total of half a dozen covering the entire county - in a country of nearly 70 million (and climbing). I don't believe this austerity for one minute. My ol' feller once said that the police were pleading poverty even in the bloody 1960s!

Maybe it's just me, but I remember coppers who actually looked like coppers rather than overweight librarians in ill-fitting rig.

Don't get me wrong. I have the utmost respect for anyone in blue (mostly), but utter contempt for those - both in uniform and out - who've allowed it to come to this.
 
#57
Well I don't know which community these fellers are reflecting other than some gay utopia, but I'd rather coppers looked like this than the fat-arsed, high-vizzed wendies I usually encounter.

View attachment 346796
That is rather negative.
I have every confidence that these two examples of British 'Bobby' will be able to go-all-ninja in a nanosecond.

(I am not sure if their jackets are undone because they are undisciplined scruffs, or because they are just too over-weight to do up the zippers?)
 
#58
Their jackets are undone because they have got carry vests on rather than kit belts. Do the jacket up and you can't reach your kit. If you know you'll be outside for ages -say foot patrol on a saturday night - the best thing is to take off the vest and put the hi viz on then vest on top. - otherwise you just sling your jacket on for the short time you need it.
 
#59
Ever tried to restrain someone safely?

.
Oh hum.jpg

Yup it's boring mob handed...

I was last to get to him so took control of his legs. The other guy couldn't figure out why he started struggling even harder.
nothing to do with me crossing his ankles bone against the floor ... I will let you guess what I was then kneeling on.


Does get a bit sporty on your own.
 
#60
Edited to add, those blokes are CRS, a 13,000 strong standing force of “Riot Police”, something the U.K. doesn’t have.
I met them many years ago and they did not mess about. Am I correct in thinking that when they have no rioters to play with they become traffic cops, thus being France's most hated while Clouseau can remain warm and cuddly?
 

Similar threads

Top