Police selection, training and operations: can all police officers use force effectively?

#21
Ever tried to restrain someone safely?

We use Therapeutic Crisis Intervention (TCI) on children/ adolescents in my workplace and it is very challenging, particularly in conjunction with adults that do no form of physical exercise against young people that believe they have carte blanche to cause whatever harm they wish to you with virtual impunity. You will typically use three adults to ensure the safety of everyone involved, purely on a child.

I can fully empathise with the police trying to safely restrain fully grown pissed/ coked/ spiced up adults in a manner where they won't be getting sued days later for 'excessive force' or whatever.
 
#22
Are there common reasons that you know of as to why officers are leaving, please?
Police officers quitting at some of highest rates on record analysis reveals

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....cop-out-police-officers-quitting-12402588.amp

Sajid Javid told Theresa May she was 'wrong' to block 3% police pay rise, leaked Home Office letter shows

A number of reasons really, probably the excessive workload, with numbers dropping and reported crime rising, the complexity of the work which when it arrives in volume is impossible to get on top of to any standard.

The treatment of the police by the government and the media.

The low starting pay means Probationers are earning £18000 to £21000 and being worked excessively, whilst having to find accommodation, food and travel at market rates. Many leave home and travel to different parts of the country to Forces that are recruiting and see that they can earn much more in less demanding jobs at home. The probationer drop out rate is fairly high.

Mental Health and stress problems.

The pension trap has been eroded with contributions up to 15%, 60 year retirement age and career average payout at the end.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#24
Members of the public are probably afraid of being sued or prosecuted if they get involved.
Particularly if there's a racial element.

That said, early on in his career, a barrister friend of mine had to defend a pickpocket who'd tried to dip a plain clothes policemen on the Underground. The policeman was waving his warrant card whilst getting the worst of it on the floor of the carriage, at which point some National Front type thought all his Christmases had come at once and sailed into the pickpocket. Having reduced laddo to a quivering heap, he then departed the scene in a glow of public-spiritedness and with a quick 'Alright mate'.

The defendant wasn't the brightest either, testimony from witnesses soon made it clear that he was attending court in the same or similar clothes to those he'd worn during the incident. My mate cannot count that case among his victories.
 
#25
As a snap shot/anecdote from 2005-2006

I was doing Krav maga regularly in the southwest. It was run by a copper. There was a constant flow of coppers, mainly women through the classes. This was explained as new coppers starting their careers were doing weekend shifts in the more "fruity" urban conurbations and simply not mentally or physically able to overcome the initial shock of actually having to "fight drunk people" on the streets
So they came to the Krav maga run by their fighty copper to get a bit more of a feel for it
 
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#26
You could easily transpose the same questions to soldiers, some of whom I knew that had no aggression and no will to fight.

People don’t really consider or properly know what fighting a drugged up man with a machete, armed with 6 seconds of spray and a short aluminium stick entails anymore than kids envisage bayoneting someone in the chest or chucking a grenade into a room prior to joining.

You get the police officer or soldier that you invest top level training in and continue to train throughout their career. If you choke off funding and overly politicise the role then you produce a certain type of police officer.
That's a fair point. I suppose what I have been struggling to define is, you are taking a beating. Survival instinct needs to kick in - almost irrespective of whether you are a police officer or average person - and you need to set out to hurt the other person, of necessity. That does not appear to have happened in the incident in the news item.
I have been in one similar situation and did not know beforehand how I would react but it dawned on me very quickly that I needed to escalate my response.
No criticism of police is intended. I am concerned by what the news item shows.
 
#27
Agree. One that is not influence by readers of certain tabloids who think back to a non existent Golden Age of zero crime, lily livered liberal no hopers, or the privatisation lobby.
The Commission needs to be made up of a broad brush of society. Police Professionals, Politicians, members of the public, academics and members of the judiciary etc.
 
#28
Jesus. That's genuinely shocking. 3.5 mins?
Same as the Prison service. Our strength test was removed two years ago because no one had ever failed it. That's how weak the test was.
As far as numbers go, we had five Officers with less than one years service resign over one weekend about a month ago & then, a couple of days later, two more resigned. One had twenty five years in & the other over ten.
Mainly the price of recruiting two & a half thousand officers over two years, many of them totally unsuitable.
If anyone says entry requirements have been lowered, quite happy to call them a liar.
i can imagine that at training college, the tutors are being told that everyone, regardless of ability will pass off.
We have one who has made it quite clear that she will refuse to restrain a con or use her baton.
 
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#29
As a snap shot/anecdote from 2005-2006

I was doing Krav maga regularly in the southwest. It was run by a copper. There was a constant flow of coppers, mainly women through the classes. This was explained as new coppers starting their careers were doing weekend shifts and simply not mentally or physically able to overcome the initial shock of actually having to "fight drunk people" on the streets
So they came to the Krav maga run by their fighty copper to get a bit more of a feel for it
Maybe they shouldn’t have to pay for it in their own time if it was necessary for their job?
 
#31
That's a fair point. I suppose what I have been struggling to define is, you are taking a beating. Survival instinct needs to kick in - almost irrespective of whether you are a police officer or average person - and you need to set out to hurt the other person, of necessity. That does not appear to have happened in the incident in the news item.
I have been in one similar situation and did not know beforehand how I would react but it dawned on me very quickly that I needed to escalate my response.
No criticism of police is intended. I am concerned by what the news item shows.
Minimum force and accountability is hammered from day one to the day you leave. That breeds a mindset that it’s better to lose someone than injure someone, with the resultant issues.

I see plenty of robust and scary cops comfortably overpowering violent scrotes every day successfully. That however doesn’t make the news as it doesn’t fit the agenda. Equally there are cops that struggle with violent confrontation but maybe great at other things. I sit somewhere in the middle, resigned to the fact that I may have to scrap but at 51 hoping that I can keep it to the minimum for my own health and to preserve my income and career.
 
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#32
$350. Call it $700 if you add the mark up for a thieving supplier and kick backs to the buyer. Whoever is supplying Britplod with the things is taking the piss.
The X26 Taser is obsolete and not made anymore. Only The X2 approved by The HO for Police purchase.

Met to increase number of officers with Taser electronic weapons

“Police forces are moving to a new Taser model, the X2. It costs about £1,500, and is three times more expensive than a Glock handgun”.
 
#33
Maybe they shouldn’t have to pay for it in their own time if it was necessary for their job?
fair point. I know at 40 Cdo the local coppers used to use the DOJO on a regular basis.

You'd hope work related training was on the clock..............................
 
#35

Interesting link which shows the difficulties of policing within the law. US but illustrates a point.
 
#36
When The Police were branded as institutionally racist, sexist, homophobic, ageist and any other ism you care to mention, politicians forced Chiefs to start recruiting what they called a workforce that was representative of society.

That included every shape and size and every attitude that was willing to apply. This was facilitated by lowering height and weight to height ratios along with fitness standards. I doubt the police wanted to do this but were forced to by politicians and media outlets with an agenda.

Couple that with a 25% cut to funding and the continuous pernicious and unnecessary attacks on policing by May and we find ourselves where we are.
 
#37
Funnily enough, we have had a push to recruit more graduates and A Level standard recruits, on paper much better educated but I don’t in many cases see this reflected in the quality of their written work or general knowledge.
 
#38
As an SFO I have to do the highest bleep test level of any specialism. 10.5. Equates to 7 and a half minutes running. In PT kit. No strength element.
 
#39

Read this article, a classic example of the police being held responsible for the inability of others to live a reasonable and sensible life.

As a result of this, I could foresee a review which states that all similar case will have to result in arrest or transportation of the idiot to home or hospital.

That double crewed unit will then be tied up for hours and your crime will not be attended promptly if at all.

I remember May saying that Police were only responsible for crime. She never repeated that once she realised what a tit it made her look.
 
#40
Funnily enough, we have had a push to recruit more graduates and A Level standard recruits, on paper much better educated but I don’t in many cases see this reflected in the quality of their written work or general knowledge.
Things did not seem to be going as well as hoped for in terms of training for the direct entry mob at the Met. either:

Every single recruit for new police officer recruitment programme fails exam because they were unable to use HANDCUFFS

Might almost think it hadn't been though through properly.....
 

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