Police recruits - not very good.

Ventress

LE
Moderator
#1
http://news.bbc.co.uk

Being a red arrse in the Police I take umbridge, being labled no better than the criminals I am employed to catch.

The fact they have re-invented the 'police' wheel and are going back to the graduate copper- with all the problems they bring. Its all well and good having an 'ology, but can you discuss that with a drunk 6"5' ex Commando who wants to pull their heads off? Doubtful. I have worked with both graduate and non-graduate, I take the non-graduate every time as they can relate to the chav and chavette on the street much better than Degree-Boy anytime.

Discuss.
 
#4
I too have served in the Police. They are supposed to reflect society, this has a down side too. (low civvy standards)

I have met Cops who are frankly very dim (like the military we have our pretty dim alongside some frighteningly clever), but "booklearning" is not all that is required to do this job, physical and moral courage, the ability and confidence to talk to the public and the courage to make decisions are all required, as well as a certain level of streetwise common sense.

Many of those who have delighted in this recent report would piss their pants if they faced what I used to routinely, of a weekend especially.

We need a Royal commission into Policing and a proper debate about what we actually want from Police, and the Criminal Justice system, and who we want to provide it, and how we will support that, not more disjointed initiatives and frankly unhelpful reports
 
#5
Ventress,

You comments seem very ill-founded. Surly being a serving Police Officer you should know the benefits of employing a large amount of graduates. If you look Police force's higher ranks and consider the profiles of senior detectives working in areas such an SB, flying squad and the National Crime Squad, you will see that a high proportion of these officers are graduates from well respected universities.

Quite simply the Police need graduates, because they form the basis of future leaders. It is silly and quite naive to suggest the current climate of recruiting graduates will have a negative effect of the Police Service as a whole. Do you expect people without degrees, or at least A-levels to be leaders? What type of respect would they command for the general public?

Most Police Officers i have spoken to realise the benefits of graduates in their ranks. Having a GOOD degree, for a GOOD university shows that you have the ability to consider issues objectively, can analysis complex issues and can handle a certain degree of pressure. Finally it shows you can be bothered to get off your ass and actually achieve something worthwhile at a young age.

I am not for one minute suggesting all graduates are the 'bee’s knees'. Of course you get naive and stupid grads in the police, but in my experience they are few and far between.

Finally, having a degree has no reflection on your ability to deal with difficult customers, or to handle 6’4 ex marines! Simply, you are either good at that, or not. In my experience there is no correlation between grads and bad coppers.
 
#6
Spread the word that if an easy life in a pretend uniform is what you're looking for, the fire service is a much better career. Recruit standards will improve immediately.
 
#7
eako said:
Do you expect people without degrees, or at least A-levels to be leaders? What type of respect would they command for the general public?
Exactly which "public" have you been dealing with? Being a member of the aforementioned "general public" and in an occupation which brings me into daily contact with the Police, I can honestly say that I care not a jot if any of the senior bods I deal with have A levels, degrees, Doctorates or certificates from the Mickey Mouse Club. They are either good leaders or they are not, regardless of bits of paper.
 
#8
eako said:
Having a GOOD degree, for a GOOD university shows that you have the ability to consider issues objectively, can analysis complex issues and can handle a certain degree of pressure. Finally it shows you can be bothered to get off your ass and actually achieve something worthwhile at a young age.
i cant comment on the police force but if it is anything like the army then i think this does not make the slightest bit of difference. EXPERIENCE is the key, the LE officers in the army have far more experience and IMHO a great deal of common sense.

u say you repect someone because they show "they can be bothered to get off their ass and actually achieve something worthwhile at a young age"

how about getting out and working for a living? degrees now are not all they are cracked up to be, i know this for a fact. some people are good at academic work and will breeze a degree. the real world is totally different. real life is dealt with by experience and knowledge of dealing with people. the brighter ex rankers could do the job graduates do easily, the same in the army.

there is an awful lot of "buffoonery" carried out at 2lt and lt level in the army, the same in the equivalent rank in the police no doubt. you will not see this from LE officers tho
 
#9
So you couldn't care less if a Police Officer (APCO rank) does not have a degree? Quite strange. Personally, I believe this to be a must. However, it is hypothetical, because all APCO ranks have degrees, which is precisely my point.
 
#10
eako said:
So you couldn't care less if a Police Officer (APCO rank) does not have a degree? Quite strange. Personally, I believe this to be a must. However, it is hypothetical, because all APCO ranks have degrees, which is precisely my point.
if he knows his job then why should this be a prerequisite? this is not a dig, im not aware of how police rank structure works too much. but i imagine the same as all staff officers being DE officers.

DE officers are a lot better once out of the wet behind the ears faze. (ie 2Lt Lt) but this is generally through EXPERIENCE. this cannot be learnt doing a degree, it is learnt through being on the job, dont you see my point??

with the same training and courses, the brighter ex rankers could do the same job, without a degree.
 
#11
eako said:
So you couldn't care less if a Police Officer (APCO rank) does not have a degree? Quite strange. Personally, I believe this to be a must. However, it is hypothetical, because all APCO ranks have degrees, which is precisely my point.
You're talking about a club here, nothing more and nothing less. The Association of Chief Police Officers. Jobs for the boys?
 
#12
eako said:
So you couldn't care less if a Police Officer (APCO rank) does not have a degree? Quite strange. Personally, I believe this to be a must. However, it is hypothetical, because all APCO ranks have degrees, which is precisely my point.
How many Degrees is that: Entered Apprentice, through to Master Mason .... 33rd Degree :D then Royal Arch and all the rest. Only joking :idea:
 
#13
Who cares about the qualifications? It is the person who matters. I have worked with several ACPO ranks all who had degrees but did not carry signs around their necks stating which college and what degree they had. Some where great leaders (decisive and very down to earth) , others were rubbish ( couldn't make a decision ) and looked down their noses at anyone who hadn't had the accelerated promotion which they had got and who therefore were beneath their contempt.

Yes graduates have displayed a talent for learning but it should not be an automatic shoe-in toaccelerated promotion and indeed should not be seen as an automatic green light to a high ranking career (accelerated or not).
 
#14
I would agree experience is far more valuable than any academic qualification. That’s why I believe the probation training for police is so important. It gives the new recruit, graduate or not, two years on the street doing the job for real.

However, I feel large organisations only benefit from highly qualified people. To suggest, as some have, that graduates have a negative impact on the police is just wrong.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
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#15
eako said:
I would agree experience is far more valuable than any academic qualification. That’s why I believe the probation training for police is so important. It gives the new recruit, graduate or not, two years on the street doing the job for real.

However, I feel large organisations only benefit from highly qualified people. To suggest, as some have, that graduates have a negative impact on the police is just wrong.
I don't think that the suggestion graduates have a negative impact - rather that the idea that every recruit has to be a graduate is negative.

What about the enthusiatic recruit, fresh from school (not uni) who has wanted to be part of Plod all his life and is now taking part in the training, looking forward to going out and working as a uniformed policeman? Give me a squad of them and not a squad of graduates looking for their first step up to Inspector (ask how many grads want to be Sergeants!)

I ain't Plod though but don't you feel that this is a bt like army life?
 
#16
Friend of mine had his annual appraisal a few years back and was asked by his inspector why after 12 years service he had never applied for specialism CID etc.
My friends reply "I like patrolling in uniform in a panda car and think I am good at what I do"
Inspectors reply "Yes but it does show a lack of ambition"

Uniform Officers are supposed to be the bedrock of the service.
 
#17
eako said:
I would agree experience is far more valuable than any academic qualification. That’s why I believe the probation training for police is so important. It gives the new recruit, graduate or not, two years on the street doing the job for real.

However, I feel large organisations only benefit from highly qualified people. To suggest, as some have, that graduates have a negative impact on the police is just wrong.
Without a doubt experience is the key and graduate or not it is how the individual officer copes with life on the street that matters. A two year probationary period is a good thing but it does not a fully fleged police officer make despite what the glossy recruiting material may say.
 
#18
Auld-Yin said:
I don't think that the suggestion graduates have a negative impact - rather that the idea that every recruit has to be a graduate is negative.

What about the enthusiatic recruit, fresh from school (not uni) who has wanted to be part of Plod all his life and is now taking part in the training, looking forward to going out and working as a uniformed policeman? Give me a squad of them and not a squad of graduates looking for their first step up to Inspector (ask how many grads want to be Sergeants!)

I ain't Plod though but don't you feel that this is a bt like army life?
entirely the point im trying to get across Auld-Yin
 
#19
Too much is being made here of the example of senior officers and their degrees. In my former force, a very large one, while the senior officers may have had degrees, most, if not all obtained them while in service via part time study, as opposed to being products of the normal 18-21 year old undergraduate route. I think I am correct in saying that they also all did so having already obtained Inspector rank, and did so as a career enhancer, and for the personal pride, and they are usually in law or a similar subject with direct relevance to policing. To stand these men (and women) up as an example of graduates entering the service is wholly unrepresentative of graduates and Police.

I certainly believe being a graduate does not correlate with being a bad officer, but nor does it correlate with being a good one (prior to the removal of any minimum standard worth mentioning in selection, when we still had a competitive process on merit I know a number of graduates who could not score highly enough on initial testing to get in). We in the Police should make more use of our own resources, and the new system whereby all officers are eligible to apply for accelerated promotion is a step in the right direction.
 
#20
Making use of existing resources is something our glorious government is dead set against. The next set of reforms look set to bring with it direct entry to the Inspecting ranks at least for those with suitable management experience and or a relevant qualification !! This breaks the link where everone starts off the same, even for a brief two years and paves the way for supervisors with no street experience.
 

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