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Police lose over 5300 firearms in two years.

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#1
From the same people who are trying to convince the populace that the only safe place for a firearm is in their tender care comes this admission - and it wouldn't surprise me if the figures have been massaged down to make the police appear more responsible than is the case.
To those of us who have had to deal with the SAPS on a regular basis this comes as no great surprise, but how do others react, especially as the country is playing host to many visitors from overseas for the next few weeks ?
Does it change anyone's views on the arming of every Brit police officer ?

http://www.pacificbreeze353.com/new...e=1561&nl=281&click=web&subsection=51&langu=1

Andries Botha said:
SAPS Lose 5 300 Firearms over Two Years
07 Jun 2010

More than 5 300 firearms have been lost or stolen from police stations and offices around the country over the past two years.

According to a written reply by police minister Nathi Mthethwa to a parliamentary question, just over a tenth of these have been recovered.

The minister said he had asked the Civilian Secretariat for Police to investigate the losses.

A table included in the reply shows 2 603 firearms were lost or stolen in the past financial year (2009/10), and 2 759 the year before.

A total of 457 of the firearms that disappeared over the two-year period went missing from SAPS head office in Pretoria.

A breakdown of the missing firearms by province shows the number of firearms lost or stolen in KwaZulu-Natal and Mpumalanga soared over the past year.

In KwaZulu-Natal, the figure escalated from 353 in 2008/09, to 840 last year (2009/10), an increase of about 238%. In Mpumalanga, police last year managed to lose or have stolen more than three times the number of firearms than the year before (364 compared to 120).

The Eastern Cape showed an improvement. Police in the province lost or had stolen 1 095 firearms in 2008/09. Last year, a total of 613 went missing.

Mthethwa said in his reply that 290 firearms were recovered during 2008/09, and a further 275 last year (2009/10).

Action had been taken against 56 police officers, of whom 33 had been found guilty in disciplinary inquiries.

"As minister of police, I have repeatedly stated that we are serious about ensuring that the SAPS takes greater responsibility for the loss of firearms by [its] members.

"To this end, I have asked the Civilian Secretariat for Police to look into the matter.

"The department will be putting in place a number of processes to ensure police officers are held responsible for such loss of weapons," he concluded.
 
#3
Doesn't change my view that more (not necessarily all) UK police officers should be armed. Let's be fair, whilst the Brit plod don't always get it right, they're probably a far more professional and less corrupt organisation than the OB in South Africa.

Probably would have been a bit more of an accurate thread title if you said SA police lose 5300 firearms eh?
 
#4
The fact that this is about the South African Police, did require that I was several paragraphs in to the article before I lost interest.
Why would the South African police, losing firearms, be of any import as to possible regulations in the UK anyway?
 
#5
The_Seagull said:
Doesn't change my view that more (not necessarily all) UK police officers should be armed. Let's be fair, whilst the Brit plod don't always get it right, they're probably a far more professional and less corrupt organisation than the OB in South Africa.

Probably would have been a bit more of an accurate thread title if you said SA police lose 5300 firearms eh?
I suspect a significant percentage of Cumbrians would agree with you in light of recent events.

While the courage of the unarmed officers who attempted to follow Bird while he was playing GTA: Cumbria is not in doubt, the fact remains that is had they been armed, lives would have been saved.

However, I don't see it happening; firearms training costs money and CivPol is as fcuked as everyone else in that respect...
 
#6
The_Seagull said:
... Let's be fair, whilst the Brit plod don't always get it right, they're probably a far more professional and less corrupt organisation than the OB in South Africa....
Having had the pleasure of the company of both overnight, I can assure you that the SA police treated me far more fairly and graciously than our own filth (though I still think it likely that they helped themselves to my phone and wallet).
 
#7
I wonder how many of these 'lost' weapons found their way into AWB hands? Odd that the article should be printed now, with the World Cup imminent...or maybe just well-timed...(gnaws tinfoil hat)
 
#8
Werewolf said:
The_Seagull said:
Doesn't change my view that more (not necessarily all) UK police officers should be armed. Let's be fair, whilst the Brit plod don't always get it right, they're probably a far more professional and less corrupt organisation than the OB in South Africa.

Probably would have been a bit more of an accurate thread title if you said SA police lose 5300 firearms eh?
I suspect a significant percentage of Cumbrians would agree with you in light of recent events.

While the courage of the unarmed officers who attempted to follow Bird while he was playing GTA: Cumbria is not in doubt, the fact remains that is had they been armed, lives would have been saved.

However, I don't see it happening; firearms training costs money and CivPol is as fcuked as everyone else in that respect...
Why ? What happened in Cumbria ?
 
#11
The South Wales Police,back in the early 80s built an indoor range without any ventiation system, and then wondered why they were all getting lead poisoning
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#12
IndianaDel said:
The fact that this is about the South African Police, did require that I was several paragraphs in to the article before I lost interest.
Why would the South African police, losing firearms, be of any import as to possible regulations in the UK anyway?
I think you've misunderstood the post.
I wasn't implying that this would have any effect on the private ownership of firearms in the UK but asking two different questions.

1. What is the view of posters on this, (in my opinion massive,) loss of wpns, particularly in light of the floods of foreign visitors for the forthcoming World Cup and the reputation ZA has for violent crime ?

2. I also wondered if the fact that a police service well versed in carrying firearms can lose so many in such a short time would have any effect, either way, on people's thoughts regarding arming the British police.

As you are probably aware, the SAPS are issued firearms as a matter of routine, and the officers therefore become very familiar with carrying them.
Over a period of time this can lead to the offrs treating them like any other item of eqpt and becoming lax in their drills and security of the items.

Should the police in Britain all be armed on a day to day basis I'm sure effective methods regarding the security of the wpns will be put in place, but a few years down the line when buckling on a pistol is part of the offrs' everyday, it would be difficult to guarantee that neither weapons nor ammunition will go missing.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#13
auscam said:
I wonder how many of these 'lost' weapons found their way into AWB hands? Odd that the article should be printed now, with the World Cup imminent...or maybe just well-timed...(gnaws tinfoil hat)
I imagine that the AWB question was tongue in cheek, but if not then I'd guess between very, very few and vokoll.

As to the timing of the article, Nathi Mthethwa released the information on Wed 02 Jun I believe.

I think the tinfoil trilby can be if not removed, then at least held in reserve.
 
#14
Between Jan06 to Dec 08 the MOD lost 35 pistols,42 rifles,and 3 Machine guns, and over 40.000 rounds of ammunition in one way or another. and at least one police officer, WPC Rachael Brown was killed with one of these weapons
 
#16
And who can forget the North Wales Police Firearms Licensing Manager who was caught selling confiscated pistols to members of a local shooting club?

Was he imprisoned? Nope; given a fine for each of the illegally held .22LR rounds they found at his home. 8O
 
#17
FiveAlpha said:
Thats nowt. Between Nov 08 and Jun 10 I lost 6980 minutes of my life reading your shite cut n paste posts and black dogging exploits.
You should get out more, and I have never done a cut and paste as I have no idea how its done
 
#18
tropper66 said:
Between Jan06 to Dec 08 the MOD lost 35 pistols,42 rifles,and 3 Machine guns, and over 40.000 rounds of ammunition in one way or another. and at least one police officer, WPC Rachael Brown was killed with one of these weapons
Rachael Brown was killed with one of these weapons?
How come she's still alive then?
The charge was attempted murder..........
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/6169241.stm

Out of curiosity, where were all these weapons lost?
Afghanistan or STANTA?
Reasonable loss or not?
 
#19
abeaumont said:
tropper66 said:
Between Jan06 to Dec 08 the MOD lost 35 pistols,42 rifles,and 3 Machine guns, and over 40.000 rounds of ammunition in one way or another. and at least one police officer, WPC Rachael Brown was killed with one of these weapons
Rachael Brown was killed with one of these weapons?
How come she's still alive then?
The charge was attempted murder..........
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/6169241.stm

Out of curiosity, where were all these weapons lost?
Afghanistan or STANTA?
Reasonable loss or not?
The report I read from "The Mail on line" quoted that she was dead, and yes some of these weapons were "lost" on operations and latter turned up in the UK
 
#20
tropper66 said:
abeaumont said:
tropper66 said:
Between Jan06 to Dec 08 the MOD lost 35 pistols,42 rifles,and 3 Machine guns, and over 40.000 rounds of ammunition in one way or another. and at least one police officer, WPC Rachael Brown was killed with one of these weapons
Rachael Brown was killed with one of these weapons?
How come she's still alive then?
The charge was attempted murder..........
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/6169241.stm

Out of curiosity, where were all these weapons lost?
Afghanistan or STANTA?
Reasonable loss or not?
The report I read from "The Mail on line" quoted that she was dead, and yes some of these weapons were "lost" on operations and latter turned up in the UK

Apologies to all for quoting from The Scum, but as of a few weeks ago she was still alive.


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2901949/Cop-quits-over-shooting-stress.html
 

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