Police gone soft?

I would definitely argue against the Police having gone soft, 3 (unarmed) ex squaddies in my force took down a knife wielding bloke in mental health crisis afew weeks ago folding him up like a piece of ikea furniture before he even knew what the hell was going on. I know the others on their shifts feel a lot safer having us types on duty with them, as our attitude to risk is generally a lot different.
The police are a reflection of society, much like the military. Predominantly our hands are tied by rules and regulations, but I still wade into danger as quickly as I did when I wore a leafy suit. Albeit I am a lot happier trying to de-escalate a situation by talking, as that is what society demands from us!

Rest assured that the capability to ‘go red’ is still there if needed!
Just as a quick drift-ish, a mate of mine in GMP once told me that various Police forces were trying to move away from recruiting ex forces, especially Army.
 
I would definitely argue against the Police having gone soft, 3 (unarmed) ex squaddies in my force took down a knife wielding bloke in mental health crisis afew weeks ago folding him up like a piece of ikea furniture before he even knew what the hell was going on. I know the others on their shifts feel a lot safer having us types on duty with them, as our attitude to risk is generally a lot different.
The police are a reflection of society, much like the military. Predominantly our hands are tied by rules and regulations, but I still wade into danger as quickly as I did when I wore a leafy suit. Albeit I am a lot happier trying to de-escalate a situation by talking, as that is what society demands from us!

Rest assured that the capability to ‘go red’ is still there if needed!
Do your senior officers back you if things get serious?
 
My bold ... watching a lot of the numerous "reality" police programmes on the box, it does seem an awful lot of their time is spent on dealing with "domestics" or people who are mentally ill, so becoming more akin to the militant wing of the Social services!!
A mental health case can take a whole shift (plus overtime) and involve hundreds of miles of driving. Domestics are a nightmare, an arrest is ‘expected’ and the 9 o’clock jury will criticise every decision you made and try to blame you for screw ups further up the line. Both these instances have happened to me in the last week.
 
There is no practical barrier to U.K. Police being routinely armed. 99% of the world manage it and so do the military.

However it’s not something you can achieve overnight. It is a 5 year project with proper funding and training.
One obvious problem is that police training is finger inside the trigger guard, massively increasing the risk of an ND, over the military alongside the trigger guard safety position.
 
That’s the best laugh I’ve had all week!

That thumping noise you hear when things go pear shaped is the sound of senior officer slamming their office doors and putting soothing music on.
I realise from reading here and other sources that senior management don't seem to "support the troops" if things get a bit chaotic. I was just curious to know if Poo Finger got support?
 

Green_Homer

War Hero
One obvious problem is that police training is finger inside the trigger guard, massively increasing the risk of an ND, over the military alongside the trigger guard safety position.
I must have missed that part of my AFO course....

Funnily enough though if a firearm is needed to be pointed at someone (considered in itself a use of force and must be justified) then it's usually serious enough for the finger to be on the trigger otherwise why is it being aimed?

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One obvious problem is that police training is finger inside the trigger guard, massively increasing the risk of an ND, over the military alongside the trigger guard safety position.
I'm not overly sure about that because on my course it was an auto fail if they caught you with your finger in the trigger guard for anything other than taking a shot or activation.
 

poo_finger

Old-Salt
Do your senior officers back you if things get serious?
It’s worrying about stuff like that that stops people acting effectively!
I didn’t much worry for whether the brass would back my actions when I was in green, just as long as what I did was justified and my oppo’s were ok.

I’m not long in blue, but I have generally stuck to that mindset.

I really enjoy ‘The Job’ but then I haven’t been in long enough to have witnessed the changes!
 
Just as a quick drift-ish, a mate of mine in GMP once told me that various Police forces were trying to move away from recruiting ex forces, especially Army.
When I joined in 87 they activly recruited ex military. On my two day selection at Paddington for the Met, everyone who was in the military passed, even the RAF guys. There were loads at Hendon and on my first relief at Hillingdon. They were highly regarded. It all changed with Blair and the McPherson witch hunt in the early part of this century when Political Correctness hit the job big time.

The watch word was diversity and the need to increase the number of BAME, women, and LGBT, never mind that they were suitable for the job. Ex servicemen were just seen as too white, male, and politicaly incorrect. I saw very few who were ex service at my last borough at Brent up until I left in 2012 for Empire State building in Earls Court, compared to one I first joined. I don't know if this has changed.
 
You seem to be hearing voices. I did not argue for those things.

Prisons should be places of punishment without the rife violence, sex and drug abuse now found in those dreadful places. Reopen mental hospitals for the mentally ill - I'm no monster. Thatcher closed the asylums (while leaving the House of Commons open for business).

For the mentally well-enough, prison should be austere - humane but a place of punishment and shame. If that means being more heavy-handed with prisoners and more rigid with discipline, so be it. No one should want to go back, but no one should be abused either.
I enjoy your posts but the toothpaste is long out of the tube. You long for a police force policing a society that simply doesn't exist. The coppers in the 1960s policed a 1960s society and behaved in a 1960s manner. But society has changed, you might not have but the rest of society has. For the better or for the worse is a matter of opinion (in my opinion it's a mixed bag).

Of course it would be wonderful to see a plod wandering down a well-maintained high street full of smiling families shopping in local butchers and vegetable shops, people who grew up in a society well used to deference, responsibility and respect (just respect, not jackboot licking) for public servants in smart uniforms, and these included bus drivers, park wardens, office commissionaires, firemen, postmen and soldiers and sailors wandering the street off duty.

In this society dad would either wear a tie when he went to the office where he worked or wore a shop coat or overalls when he went to the non-office where he worked. Mum was at home cooking dinner for the kids and everyone sat down in the evening to watch the Black and White Minstrel Show on telly until going to bed at 10pm. Entertainment meant going to the cinema on Friday night or a couple of halfs of bitter before chucking out time at 11pm when you picked up a fish supper and got the bus home.

That society is gone and frustrating though it is to see cops wandering around looking like Robocop and acting like a social worker with a degree in Comparative Theatre from Brighton Polytechic, that's the type of policing society apparently wants, not you, not me certainly, but a society gets the policing it deserves, and those are the type of cops the people of the UK apparently want. After all, the governments who created that type of cop were all democratically elected by the people of the UK.

Enjoy the sunnier climes, I certainly do.
 
When I joined in 87 they activly recruited ex military. On my two day selection at Paddington for the Met, everyone who was in the military passed, even the RAF guys. There were loads at Hendon and on my first relief at Hillingdon. They were highly regarded. It all changed with Blair and the McPherson witch hunt in the early part of this century when Political Correctness hit the job big time.

The watch word was diversity and the need to increase the number of BAME, women, and LGBT, never mind that they were suitable for the job. Ex servicemen were just seen as too white, male, and politicaly incorrect. I saw very few who were ex service at my last borough at Brent up until I left in 2012 for Empire State building in Earls Court, compared to one I first joined. I don't know if this has changed.
My experience also
 
[...]that's the type of policing society apparently wants, not you, not me certainly,[...]
I would argue that both of you are part of society, you are possibly in the majority as well. However, as you also correctly identify, that description is history. and applying those methods to modern day society would likely see a rise in crime.

However, I suspect that is a widespread desire for a bit more robustness in the criminal justice system. The problem is more likely to do with the Criminal Protection Service, than the actual police. For example last night on Ch5 there was a police camera show.
Yobbo breaks in to someone's house, steals their brand new car and drives at speeds up to 150mph, tries to hit some Police manning a stinger/avoids the stinger by driving on the path, either way the police had to leap out the way to avoid getting killed, and assorted other ******* about. All was caught on the helicopter's CCTV system.

He got three years, and a three year driving ban, as they only prosecuted him for the speeding, theft and TWOC. They could have stuck the case for assault with a deadly weapon on there (aiming a car at policemen) and seen if it had stuck. If it hadn't, then he gets what he got now, if he had caught it we could be upping his by a decent amount.
 
When I joined in 87 they activly recruited ex military. On my two day selection at Paddington for the Met, everyone who was in the military passed, even the RAF guys. There were loads at Hendon and on my first relief at Hillingdon. They were highly regarded. It all changed with Blair and the McPherson witch hunt in the early part of this century when Political Correctness hit the job big time.

The watch word was diversity and the need to increase the number of BAME, women, and LGBT, never mind that they were suitable for the job. Ex servicemen were just seen as too white, male, and politicaly incorrect. I saw very few who were ex service at my last borough at Brent up until I left in 2012 for Empire State building in Earls Court, compared to one I first joined. I don't know if this has changed.
That is pretty much what mates of mine in the job have told me.
 
I would argue that both of you are part of society, you are possibly in the majority as well. However, as you also correctly identify, that description is history. and applying those methods to modern day society would likely see a rise in crime.

However, I suspect that is a widespread desire for a bit more robustness in the criminal justice system. The problem is more likely to do with the Criminal Protection Service, than the actual police. For example last night on Ch5 there was a police camera show.
Yobbo breaks in to someone's house, steals their brand new car and drives at speeds up to 150mph, tries to hit some Police manning a stinger/avoids the stinger by driving on the path, either way the police had to leap out the way to avoid getting killed, and assorted other ******* about. All was caught on the helicopter's CCTV system.

He got three years, and a three year driving ban, as they only prosecuted him for the speeding, theft and TWOC. They could have stuck the case for assault with a deadly weapon on there (aiming a car at policemen) and seen if it had stuck. If it hadn't, then he gets what he got now, if he had caught it we could be upping his by a decent amount.
I don't think there's such an offence in the UK
 

lextalionis

Old-Salt
I enjoy your posts but the toothpaste is long out of the tube. You long for a police force policing a society that simply doesn't exist. The coppers in the 1960s policed a 1960s society and behaved in a 1960s manner. But society has changed, you might not have but the rest of society has. For the better or for the worse is a matter of opinion (in my opinion it's a mixed bag).

Of course it would be wonderful to see a plod wandering down a well-maintained high street full of smiling families shopping in local butchers and vegetable shops, people who grew up in a society well used to deference, responsibility and respect (just respect, not jackboot licking) for public servants in smart uniforms, and these included bus drivers, park wardens, office commissionaires, firemen, postmen and soldiers and sailors wandering the street off duty.

In this society dad would either wear a tie when he went to the office where he worked or wore a shop coat or overalls when he went to the non-office where he worked. Mum was at home cooking dinner for the kids and everyone sat down in the evening to watch the Black and White Minstrel Show on telly until going to bed at 10pm. Entertainment meant going to the cinema on Friday night or a couple of halfs of bitter before chucking out time at 11pm when you picked up a fish supper and got the bus home.

That society is gone and frustrating though it is to see cops wandering around looking like Robocop and acting like a social worker with a degree in Comparative Theatre from Brighton Polytechic, that's the type of policing society apparently wants, not you, not me certainly, but a society gets the policing it deserves, and those are the type of cops the people of the UK apparently want. After all, the governments who created that type of cop were all democratically elected by the people of the UK.

Enjoy the sunnier climes, I certainly do.
British society was not always the haven of relative peace and order it was in the 1960s and for the long years before that. One of the main motivations for establishing a police force was dealing with the rampant disorder of the early nineteenth century (partially caused by errant ex-squaddies) while doing away with the Bloody Code, a largely ineffectual thing. The system, coupled with the new moral ethos of the period, worked wonders. Peel's system helped to turn the tide of chaos and crime in a way that the gallows never managed.

The remoralisation of society is not something a police force could ever achieve, but it could get out of the way. Policing speech and social media should stop; there's no need to act like paramilitary social workers. We've had the same problems before, there's no reason to think that the same solutions won't work again.
 

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