Police gone soft?

I'm very much a supporter of the police (except North Wales the dodgy scruffy incompetent bastards). And I don't want all of them routinely armed.

I support the NHS and the fire brigade too, there's only so many hours in the week, which should I join?

Have a dumb.
Well thanks, first one, we'll be friends forever
 

ancienturion

LE
Book Reviewer
Target shooting ? Deer Management ? Fox control after the hunting ban ? Rabbits ? Avian pests ? The fascination of handling precision engineered heat engines ?
There are even more reasons that that but he wont ever accept any of them, they never do.

The destruction that is occurring all across our forested areas right now because we have so few deer management people because it is so difficult to become qualified and suitable equiped is real problem.

Deer populations are not being managed effectively and this is a direct consequence of over zealous gun control.
 

Chef

LE
And where do most of criminal firearms come from stolen from joe civilian
Really? Are you sure?

Maybe true for shot guns but pistols? There've been no legal pistols to steal since the 90, so more than a quarter of a century. Rifles I don't think they feature much in crime. Guns that go 'Braap!'? illegal so not owned by law abiding types.

That leaves rent a gun and converted replicas.
 
Really? Are you sure?

Maybe true for shot guns but pistols? There've been no legal pistols to steal since the 90, so more than a quarter of a century. Rifles I don't think they feature much in crime. Guns that go 'Braap!'? illegal so not owned by law abiding types.

That leaves rent a gun and converted replicas.
There are plenty of eastern european AKM and Scorpian types coming in by car from thr far reaches of the EU.
 

Bodenplatte

Old-Salt
Here's an interesting Wiki page which seems authoritative enough.



Whilst it lists NZ, Iceland, Ireland and Norway as the only countries along with UK that do not routinely arm normal response/patrol officers, a quick read through the text seems to indicate that NZ and Norway are apparently in a stage of movement towards arming, and Ireland routinely arms plain clothes/detective officers. Maybe it is only coincidental that two of the worst recent spree shootings in the world have occurred in two of these countries - Brevik in Norway, and the Christchurch mosque atrocity. So that really only leaves tiny frozen Iceland as a direct comparator to UK.

The text also shows that UK public opinion about arming police is almost perfectly divided, 47/48% with a 5% "don't know" (presumably.)

True to say that a Guardian poll of early 2017 shows only 25% support amongst the UK police themselves.

These are nationwide figures, and it would be instructive to see similar polls broken down by force areas. The polls of police opinions might also reveal a more interesting tale if the views of response coppers were taken separately from the overall polls of the Federation. As the Fed represents all officers up to Chief Inspector, it's certain that there are a great many, probably a sizeable majority, who are never placed in dangerous situations.

Cut and pasting from other sources," In October 2000, Nottinghamshire Police introduced regular armed patrols to the St Ann's and Meadows estates in Nottingham, in response to fourteen drug-related shootings in the two areas in the previous year. Although the measure was not intended to be permanent, patrols were stepped up in late 2001 after further shootings, after which the firearms crime declined dramatically."

'In 2010, following the serious injury of an unarmed officer in a knife attack, the chairman of the Police Memorial Trust, Michael Winner stated that he had put up memorials to 44 officers and that he believed, "It is almost certain that at least 38 of those [Police Officers] would be alive had they been armed." '


There is no point in getting bogged down in the details of implementation here - yes, there would be costs, delays, arguments, mistakes, accidents; but the UK is no longer an island of peace, good order and tranquility in the world, that is a conceit.
 

ExREME.TECH

War Hero
A police spokesman said that whilst the whole force had been scrambled in response to this assault no arrests had yet been made in connection to this savoury incident.
images (5).jpeg
 
Here's an interesting Wiki page which seems authoritative enough.



Whilst it lists NZ, Iceland, Ireland and Norway as the only countries along with UK that do not routinely arm normal response/patrol officers, a quick read through the text seems to indicate that NZ and Norway are apparently in a stage of movement towards arming, and Ireland routinely arms plain clothes/detective officers. Maybe it is only coincidental that two of the worst recent spree shootings in the world have occurred in two of these countries - Brevik in Norway, and the Christchurch mosque atrocity. So that really only leaves tiny frozen Iceland as a direct comparator to UK.

The text also shows that UK public opinion about arming police is almost perfectly divided, 47/48% with a 5% "don't know" (presumably.)

True to say that a Guardian poll of early 2017 shows only 25% support amongst the UK police themselves.

These are nationwide figures, and it would be instructive to see similar polls broken down by force areas. The polls of police opinions might also reveal a more interesting tale if the views of response coppers were taken separately from the overall polls of the Federation. As the Fed represents all officers up to Chief Inspector, it's certain that there are a great many, probably a sizeable majority, who are never placed in dangerous situations.

Cut and pasting from other sources," In October 2000, Nottinghamshire Police introduced regular armed patrols to the St Ann's and Meadows estates in Nottingham, in response to fourteen drug-related shootings in the two areas in the previous year. Although the measure was not intended to be permanent, patrols were stepped up in late 2001 after further shootings, after which the firearms crime declined dramatically."

'In 2010, following the serious injury of an unarmed officer in a knife attack, the chairman of the Police Memorial Trust, Michael Winner stated that he had put up memorials to 44 officers and that he believed, "It is almost certain that at least 38 of those [Police Officers] would be alive had they been armed." '


There is no point in getting bogged down in the details of implementation here - yes, there would be costs, delays, arguments, mistakes, accidents; but the UK is no longer an island of peace, good order and tranquility in the world, that is a conceit.
In both New Zealand and Norway response officers carry firearms in the car so they can choose to take them out if they are reacting to something where they might be needed, or leave them locked in the car if they don't think they will need them.
 

lextalionis

Old-Salt
I'm not sure what would be gained by arming policemen and WPCs.

In t'olden days (Eeee, by gum), when legal firearms were very widespread, the police felt that guns were kept out of the hands of ne-er-do-wells by the very real prospect of being hanged under the constructive malice rule. Thus, if one criminal committed murder (in the course of a crime) and the others knew he was armed, they all risked death. It created pressure, so it was thought, for criminals not to "pack heat".

Of course, this was the rule that led to the hanging of Derek Bentley, whatever the true meaning of his unwise words, "Let him have it". We later felt we had been too harsh on the poor little burglar.

Want to keep guns out of the hands of crooks? Hang the bastards.
 

ExREME.TECH

War Hero
I don't want the police routinely armed.

I like the UK as it is, pretty much, and that's a profound change that needs to be in a manifesto.


I just don't see a need. How often, in reality, is there not a firearms cop when you need one? How often does an unarmed (apart from pepper spray, tazer and stick) think "oh l really need a 9mm"?

Plus, on a practical level, the current firearms cops are apparently pretty well trained and equipped.

What sort of time input is needed to remain proficient to a modern policing standard on a pistol? That time is time away from policing. We are chronically short of bobbies as it is.
PSNI no longer in the UK?
 

ExREME.TECH

War Hero
Had there not been a bloody epic fail by the police in the first place there might not have been any deaths. Dunblane, yet another police balls up.
Genuine question, why, what and how?
I'm not doubting you
 
Genuine question, why, what and how?
I'm not doubting you
If memory serves there were several warning indicators, and incidents, that Hamilton should have had his guns sized. The Local Plod failed to do so. There have been accusations of freemasonry and other such shady dealings on the subject.
 

lextalionis

Old-Salt
The idea of having police in Britain was roundly resisted when the idea was first debated in the early nineteenth century. It was felt to be likely to lead to a hated, spying wing of the state (as it has proved to be) and that the relatively high crime of the era was worth tolerating to prevent that evil.

Peel and his allies thus ensured that the police then instituted were very clearly public servants, as indicated by their dress and their relative lack of powers (indeed, hardly more than the parish constable, or the civic minded of old). They were subject not to the Home Office, but to the local justices of the peace, as well as organised very locally, out of the hands of civil servants and the like. They thus did not carry weapons; there was no need in a country in which murders were few and far between.

Arming the police will not make them more effective or more respected. If you want both of those things, return the porkie bastards to street patrols and the beat-system of yore. It might just help reduce crime.
 

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