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Poland 1939 Was Hitler Right

Your arguments just go on to prove my point. You seek to exculpate German (Prussian) aggression and trivialise it by comparing to that of other states. Yes, its scale, ambition and the horrors it has inflicted can be compared to Muscovite aggression, but really no other.

You seek to make victims of the Germans by blaming external powers. The source of the recent travails of the German peoples springs directly from to the policies embarked on by a militaristic, egotistic, bombastic, Prussia and continued by her successor states, Imperial Germany and Nazi Germany.

Your culturally German Prussian Grandmother would likely not have existed had the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth pursued similar policies there to those the Prussians earlier carried out in those lands and later instituted in Poland. However the Poles showed magnanimity and tolerance and allowed Prussian self-rule once the Prussian Grand Duke had sworn fealty to the King of Poland in 1525. The Prussians (or the Teutonic Knights as they were originally called) had exterminated the original Prussians (a Baltic people related to the Lithuanians and Latvians) and usurped their name. They had form. They then reverted to form vis-a-vis the Poles as soon as they could.

Edited to add.:

And yes as I had written earlier and you highlighted, unfortunately Imperial Germany had not been decisively defeated, although it had been comprehensively defeated militarily and had sued for an armistice which had been granted. This only enabled Germany to return to the error of her ways and resume its aggressive expansionism. Had the Allies demanded unconditional surrender and decisively defeated Germany as they did later in 1945 then perhaps they would have avoided a further slaughter twenty years later (or at least the German inspired part of it).

Germany received good terms at Versailles - it could (and maybe should) have fared much worse. However the Germans still believed that they were exceptional and a "Master Race". Only the complete destruction of Germany would convince them to believe otherwise.

And yet the Allies (I'm not including the Muscovites here) were once again magnanimous to Germany and helped her rebuild and restore herself. Something the Germans would not have done to their enemies had they won. But perhaps it takes a vicious totalitarian ideology to completely wipe out another. For the destruction and effacement of the (Germanic) Prussian heartland and the removal of most of the Prussian ruled territories from Germany was carrried out by Moscow.

Lets hope that the new westward orientated Germany never reverts to its Prussian orientation and resumes the fallacies of its former superiority complex.
No they merely regurgitate the commonly held view that some people have more right to hold a view because no one else has. What I've tried to do is show that in fact the system works because it always will, it's a human condition. 1525. My my did you know around 1536 there was a rebellion called the Pilgrimage of Grace when Henry VIII was knocking off the English left right and centre because they didn't agree with him. It proves absolutely nothing. I mean FFS Most people can't recall back as far as 1750 let alone 1525. Germany received good terms at Versailles. Surely that would be called a subjective issue especially when they not even required to be there except to sign? Subsequent wars redress the balance. That's how things work. Whether the terms are good or bad is irrelevant- but they are drivers

"And yet the Allies (I'm not including the Muscovites here) were once again magnanimous to Germany and helped her rebuild and restore herself. Something the Germans would not have done to their enemies had they won. But perhaps it takes a vicious totalitarian ideology to completely wipe out another. For the destruction and effacement of the (Germanic) Prussian heartland and the removal of most of the Prussian ruled territories from Germany was carrried out by Moscow."

Don't I wish to god they had, unfortunately we had , indeed still do, suffer the consequences for the fact they didn't. I mean Putin implicitly believes in Russia's divine Right- so too does Macron about France. The allies were not magnanimous, that turned out to be how the Political reality was. Neither side would take the other on- they simply had no means to. So it became a series of swipes at the other through Korea, Suez, Indochina, Malaya etc by default.

"Lets hope that the new westward orientated Germany never reverts to its Prussian orientation and resumes the fallacies of its former superiority complex."

Oh very little chance of that, it's hitched it's star to another debacle called the EU and is firmly led by France. Moreover it's so ashamed of it's own navel after 75 years brainwashing. No no in fact I think Perhaps Germany will be driven more by what Russia does to the Nachbaren in the fullness of time.
 
I wrote:

Your arguments just go on to prove my point.

You replied:

No they merely regurgitate the commonly held view that some people have more right to hold a view because no one else has.

Hmmm. I believe that you didn't mean to spear yourself with your own argument, but it sure seems to come across that way.

As to your wish that Nazi Germany had defeated the Soviet Russia (and not the other way around as happened), you merely show your true colours.

As it was, the victory of Soviet Russia over Nazi Germany can be seen as the lesser of two evils, because it was only a partial victory for Stalin, who never fully achieved his original aim of using Hitler against the other Western Powers in an attritional war which would lead to their exhaustion and the domination of Europe and thence the world by Moscow. It sowed the seeds for the eventual comprehensive (though not decisive) defeat of Russia in the Cold War and the liberation of most of Central and Eastern Europe from its yoke.

Had it been the other way around, Nazi Germany would have likely gained the economic wherewithal to continue to pursue its genocidal policies and its lust for "Weltmacht" for a while longer and could only have been eventually stopped by the unrestricted use of atomic weapons against it. The world would have suffered far more and Germany would likely have been totally extinguished.

The result of WW2 and the eradication of its (Prussian-sourced) national superiority complex actually benefitted Germany and the German people in the long run, as can be seen from the standing of a democratic Germany today and its de-facto co-leadership of the EU.

Moscow is now in the process of repeating the same revanchist errors that Berlin made post WW1, which if it pursues them will start another conflict just as Germany did. And the fléau of the Muscovite Mindset still needs to be eradicated just as the scourge of assumed Prussian superiority was as the outcome of those errors. Let's just hope it doesn't take another World War, but that Russia self-implodes, just as the Soviet Union did.
 
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Muscovite waffle. Designed to deflect the debate from the inconvenient fact that Moscow enabled Berlin to invade Poland and thus start WW2 and was thus jointly responsible for it.
Western Powers due to the Munich agreement encouraged Hitler to split Czechoslovakia and annex remaining part of Czechia. So Western Powers are indirectly responsible for Hitler's actions.
Poland that took part in division of Czechoslovakia is directly responsible as Poland itself demonstrated example of aggression.
In 1939 Stalin was responsible for security and the very existence of the Soviet union. 17 September 1939 he made a decision to move the Red army in Poland just because he saw it as the only right step.
Yes, Stalin could leave Poland alone in her war with Germany. The outcome of that was was obvious. And as a result German troops would be just within kilometers from Minsk and about 800 km from Moscow. Stalin was unable allow it. Inaction would mean delayed suicide.
 
Western Powers due to the Munich agreement encouraged Hitler to split Czechoslovakia and annex remaining part of Czechia. So Western Powers are indirectly responsible for Hitler's actions.
Poland that took part in division of Czechoslovakia is directly responsible as Poland itself demonstrated example of aggression.
In 1939 Stalin was responsible for security and the very existence of the Soviet union. 17 September 1939 he made a decision to move the Red army in Poland just because he saw it as the only right step.
Yes, Stalin could leave Poland alone in her war with Germany. The outcome of that was was obvious. And as a result German troops would be just within kilometers from Minsk and about 800 km from Moscow. Stalin was unable allow it. Inaction would mean delayed suicide.
These points have already been comprehensively answered on this thread.
Stop wibbling.
Oh you can't; - you must parrot the Kremlin's line.
It's the Muscovite way.
 
As to your wish that Nazi Germany had defeated the Soviet Russia (and not the other way around as happened), you merely show your true colours.
Well if you served at the same time as me when the Sovs had gone into Czechoslovakia and it was threatening to go bang, I do hope that went in with the hope that we could defeat them. You seem to forget I’m Half English as well and frankly it was the nearest I got to giving them a bloody nose. Yeah I know Fula gap and we were mincemeat. My true colours are me, yours are you, but I was game.
 
Well if you served at the same time as me when the Sovs had gone into Czechoslovakia and it was threatening to go bang, I do hope that went in with the hope that we could defeat them. You seem to forget I’m Half English as well and frankly it was the nearest I got to giving them a bloody nose. Yeah I know Fula gap and we were mincemeat. My true colours are me, yours are you, but I was game.
I served a little later than you and I trained to jump in behind the Soviet first echelon and kill as many of the second as I could before being wiped out myself - and yes I was game.

In 1968 I was in holiday as a kid in south-western Poland and we watched the armoured columns roll towards the Czech border.

Edited to add: The majority of the Poles at the time, seriously wanted to join in against Moscow if push had come to shove. I overheard at a party a drunken distant relative (called uncle but it was grandparent's cousin's descendant sort of thing) who I was told was a Lt-Col, Polish Motor Rifle Regiment (more probably Batallion) Commander complaining that the Russians only trusted the Poles with two days worth of fuel and ammo for that very reason (and he confirmed the reasoning).
 
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Germany was able to conduct a very successful offensive operations during 1941 (in Europe, Africa, the Soviet union) and note, no significant Russian oilfields were captured. So oil was not so big problem to attack Turkey and capture the ME. Also note that in my imaginary scenario Germany would continue to receive oil and food from the Soviet union. I sincerely don't understand why food was ever a problem for Germany. Hitler had at his hand in fact all food sources in Europe and could send millions to the death camps. Anyway the very existence of so called 'food problem' in 1941 should be backed by statistics, by exact numbers and estimates. Without it 'the food problem' from my point of view remains just a version, just a suggestion not backed by facts.
Here's a video on the German food crisis during the war. Note that in June 1941 occupied Europe was already starving. Food shortages were widespread in France and Belgium in 1941. The Germans were already cutting domestic rations and were counting on having the Soviet Union under their control by the next year in order to get food supplies. By March of 1942 thousands and tens of thousands of people in the occupied eastern territories were dying of starvation.

 
Here's a video on the German food crisis during the war. Note that in June 1941 occupied Europe was already starving. Food shortages were widespread in France and Belgium in 1941. The Germans were already cutting domestic rations and were counting on having the Soviet Union under their control by the next year in order to get food supplies. By March of 1942 thousands and tens of thousands of people in the occupied eastern territories were dying of starvation.

The title of the video (Goebbels on the German Food Crisis 1942-43 ) is telling. Goebbels (known as economical with truth) speaks about 1942-43 not about 1941. And your source itself is not super reliable.
Frankly speaking I prefer arguments where reliable sources in written form are used (to quote them). For example
Food was rationed immediately in 1939, although Germans did not experience chronic shortages until 1944.
So German civil population didn't suffer from hunger in 1941.
Extra rations were given to people considered important to the war effort, such as workers in heavy industries. There was also extra food for pregnant women and blood donors.
And of course German army was being fed pretty well in 1941 to capture Turkey and the whole ME.
Hitler could postpone invasion of the Soviet union also because problems with food were not so severe as you suggest.
 
And of course German army was being fed pretty well in 1941 to capture Turkey and the whole ME.
Hitler could postpone invasion of the Soviet union also because problems with food were not so severe as you suggest.
By todays standards perhaps, but that was then and both sides used Erzatz. One could subsist on Bohnensuppe und swartzbrot for some considerable period I suppose and when the Horse is killed you may as well eat it. You may care to refelect there were never any truly fat soldiers either side. Paradox is that if you were "fat" people envied you cos you may have survived longer in adverse conditions.
 
Here's a video on the German food crisis during the war. Note that in June 1941 occupied Europe was already starving. Food shortages were widespread in France and Belgium in 1941. The Germans were already cutting domestic rations and were counting on having the Soviet Union under their control by the next year in order to get food supplies. By March of 1942 thousands and tens of thousands of people in the occupied eastern territories were dying of starvation.

As Grandmother said to me- when we heard that Groefass was invading Russia- her initial reaction "My god we've lost the war."
 
The title of the video (Goebbels on the German Food Crisis 1942-43 ) is telling. Goebbels (known as economical with truth) speaks about 1942-43 not about 1941. And your source itself is not super reliable.
Frankly speaking I prefer arguments where reliable sources in written form are used (to quote them). For example

So German civil population didn't suffer from hunger in 1941.

And of course German army was being fed pretty well in 1941 to capture Turkey and the whole ME.
Hitler could postpone invasion of the Soviet union also because problems with food were not so severe as you suggest.
If you had watched the full video you would have seen that:
  1. the video starts from the beginning of the war, not just 1942,
  2. the rest of occupied Europe (such as France and Belgium) was already suffering from severe food shortages in 1941, so there wasn't any great reserve of food that the Germans could have squeezed further out of them,
  3. the Germans were counting on getting food from Soviet territory by 1942, before German food stocks ran low,
  4. the German army were being fed from captured food during Operation Barbarossa, they weren't eating German stocks as they would have been if they had not gone to the Soviet Union.

You quote a source that said: "Germans did not experience chronic shortages until 1944."

I wonder what happened in 1944? Oh yes, the Germans were getting kicked out of Soviet territory and were no longer able to loot food supplies from there.

You are familiar with the Hunger Plan, aren't you?

A meeting on 2 May 1941 between the permanent secretaries responsible for logistical planning for the invasion of the Soviet Union, as well as other high-ranking Nazi party functionaries, state officials and military officers, included in its conclusions:
  1. The war can only be continued if the entire Wehrmacht is fed from Russia in the third year of the war.
  2. If we take what we need out of the country, there can be no doubt that tens of millions of people will die of starvation.

By starving 20 to 30 million Soviet citizens to death, a surplus of food could be created which could be diverted to feed the German army and also to Germany itself. Without that the Germans could not continue the war. It was an integral part of their war plan.

So if the Germans had postponed Operation Barbarossa, where would they have gotten the food from?

The Germans needed both food and oil. The Soviet Union was the only place that had both that was within their reach.
 
The title of the video (Goebbels on the German Food Crisis 1942-43 ) is telling. Goebbels (known as economical with truth) speaks about 1942-43 not about 1941. And your source itself is not super reliable.
Frankly speaking I prefer arguments where reliable sources in written form are used (to quote them). For example

So German civil population didn't suffer from hunger in 1941.

And of course German army was being fed pretty well in 1941 to capture Turkey and the whole ME.
Hitler could postpone invasion of the Soviet union also because problems with food were not so severe as you suggest.
Muscovite blinkers still firmly on.

By todays standards perhaps, but that was then and both sides used Erzatz. One could subsist on Bohnensuppe und swartzbrot for some considerable period I suppose and when the Horse is killed you may as well eat it. You may care to refelect there were never any truly fat soldiers either side. Paradox is that if you were "fat" people envied you cos you may have survived longer in adverse conditions.
My grandfather always said that he reckoned that one of the reasons he survived being deported from eastern Poland to the Siberian Gulag in winter 1939-40, (as part of Moscow’s ethnic and social policies in their part of the spoils of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact) was that he was a bit fat. The rest of his nuclear family avoided deportation through a twist of fate and they all survived the two Russian (1939 and 1944) and one German (1941) onslaughts, but remained separated for eighteen years. The extended family were not so lucky.

His tale of the deportation, incarceration and subsequent lucky escape from Soviet Russia with the “Anders Army” was both harrowing and fascinating for a young boy. He never forgave neither Berlin nor (especially) its erstwhile ally Moscow for what they had done to his beloved homeland. He managed to extract some personal payback against one at Monte Cassino, but not against the other. He unfortunately never lived long enough to see the demise of the Soviet Union and the liberation of his country from the Muscovite yoke. His own home and ancestral lands were gone forever though, as the family was evicted and transported westwards after Yalta.
 
If you had watched the full video you would have seen that:
  1. the video starts from the beginning of the war, not just 1942,
  2. the rest of occupied Europe (such as France and Belgium) was already suffering from severe food shortages in 1941, so there wasn't any great reserve of food that the Germans could have squeezed further out of them,
  3. the Germans were counting on getting food from Soviet territory by 1942, before German food stocks ran low,
  4. the German army were being fed from captured food during Operation Barbarossa, they weren't eating German stocks as they would have been if they had not gone to the Soviet Union.
1. Yes rationing of food is a standard measure during war time. So Hitler imposed it keeping in mind WW1 and food problems happened that time.
2. For Hitler problems with food in France and Belgium was the last thing that he would care about.
3. It is just a supposition that should be backed by numbers from reliable sources, not only by claims in video(s) made in oral form.
4. It is again just a claim not backed by statistics.
You quote a source that said: "Germans did not experience chronic shortages until 1944."

I wonder what happened in 1944? Oh yes, the Germans were getting kicked out of Soviet territory and were no longer able to loot food supplies from there.
Let's look at the map
1606215888508.png

In 1944 Hitler lost as a source of food whole countries - Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Turkey, bigger part of Italy and Hungary, parts of Yugoslavia and Poland.
To the end of 1943 remaining parts of the Soviet union under German control were not so big in comparison with other European agricultural regions.

You are familiar with the Hunger Plan, aren't you?



By starving 20 to 30 million Soviet citizens to death, a surplus of food could be created which could be diverted to feed the German army and also to Germany itself. Without that the Germans could not continue the war. It was an integral part of their war plan.

So if the Germans had postponed Operation Barbarossa, where would they have gotten the food from?

The Germans needed both food and oil. The Soviet Union was the only place that had both that was within their reach.
I just repeat my point and wait as a counter point something based on statistics, based of numbers from reliable sources.
My point - Hitler was quite able to capture Turkey and whole ME in 1941 using oil and food resources that were at his disposal that time. Thus invasion of the Soviet union could be postponed to be conducted early in 1942. So the Germans would have bigger Summer time interval when their forces were much more effective in comparison with the Red army. Unleashing the war with the Soviet union only 22 June 1941, Hitler hadn't additional few weeks critically important to capture Moscow.
 
Wibble. A deviation from the fact that Moscow enabled Berlin to start WW2 with the de facto alliance of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in the aim of dividing up east-central Europe between the two despotic murderous dictatorships.
 
I would like to add a bit of statistics.
The expectations of Germany for obtaining mountains of grain from Ukraine were never met. The Soviet army in retreating from the German army followed a scorched earth strategy. In 1942 and 1943, the two years in which Germany controlled most of Ukraine, the total amount of Ukrainian grain obtained by Germany, including grain for feeding the German army in the Soviet Union, supplemented German domestic production of grain by only 14 percent.
So from strategical point of view occupied Soviet territories as a source of food for Germany were not so productive.
 
Wibble. A deviation from the fact that Moscow enabled Berlin to start WW2 with the de facto alliance of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in the aim of dividing up east-central Europe between the two despotic murderous dictatorships.
Do you mean that without the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact Hitler would not attack Poland?
 
Far less likely with the threat of a two front war with USSR on one side and France/U.K. on the other. With one agreement he gets what he immediately wants in the east and far quicker as well with Soviet help. Then he has his back secured by the USSR when he turns against the West. And in addition he is supplied with Soviet grain, raw materials and oil. This makes for a very happy little Hitler.
 
One could subsist on Bohnensuppe und swartzbrot for some considerable period [...]

Slightly off topic, but something I find bloody amazing.

The IWM has some Black bread in its collection that is over 100 years old at this point.
large_000000.jpg


What makes it all the more remarkable is they have a full providence for the object, and they've made no attempt at preserving it. Yet it still looks as fresh as the day it was issued!

 
Far less likely with the threat of a two front war with USSR on one side and France/U.K. on the other. With one agreement he gets what he immediately wants in the east and far quicker as well with Soviet help. Then he has his back secured by the USSR when he turns against the West. And in addition he is supplied with Soviet grain, raw materials and oil. This makes for a very happy little Hitler.
Well, let's regard an imaginary scenario that Satalin might consider. Suppose he rejects proposal to sign the not aggression pact with Germany or/and the secret protocol to it.
What Berlin and Warsaw could do?
They could conclude secret agreement. Taking into account their cooperation to divide Czechia, it looks from Stalin's point of view as not absolutely impossible.
1. Pre WW1 Polish German border is restored of course including Danzig.
2. As a compensation Poland receives 2 fold larger lands in Ukraine and Belorussia that were for centuries parts of Poland.
3. Germany and Poland stage joint aggression against the Soviet union.
4. Germany gets Crimea, lands near to it, including Donbass, Kuban, Caucasus, Russian lands.
Germany used Romania as an ally. So why it could not use Poland in the same way?
Taking into account power of German armed forces and 1 million strong Polish army, such a joint aggression that could and likely would be supported by Western powers, would be a mortal threat to the Soviet union. Of course, Stalin preferred to stimulate a war between capitalist countries and prepare to future inevitable war.
 

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