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Poland 1939 Was Hitler Right

Edit Sorry I monged the quote function


Except that the Yanks didn’t have little boy ready until after the surrender of Germany
That's not really relevant to the argument of whether Germany was intended to be a target or not -
All that proves is that it wasn't ready in time to use on Germany regardless

I still think politics would have entered the issue.

Im still not seeing why - There was little difference between Hiroshima - Tokyo - Dresden Hamburg Caen or Coventry to the man on the ground -

Why would anyone be squeamish about using 1 bomb to kill a city instead of 100 000 - why is there this perceived deference of morality.
The US had no qualms about flattening cities with a 1000 B17s so why find 1 B29 repugnant.

To the contrary I can see the argument that 1 bomb was more humane than hours of terror inflicted by hundreds of bombers - for those on the target - but would terrify all the other cities far more.

In 1941 Nazi officials argued that conditions in the Warsaw ghetto were so bad it would be more humane to simply kill the Jews than have them starve to death.
Not relevant to the discussion - but I use it as a real example of how a perverse moral logic could justify a nuke on Germany


Okay with hindsight we now see a difference because of fall out and associated 3 eyed fish etc - but that wasn't known so doesn't factor into the decision making

Plus they didn’t want the Russians to know.

Somewhat at odds with the persistant claim that Japan was finished and wanted to surrender and they only dropped it to scare Russia.

However ignoring the conspiracy wibble - How much longer was the secret kept dropping on Japan versus Kiel or Paris - Soviet agents would have been crawling over anywhere quick enough
 
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sand_rat

Old-Salt
As I recall Stalin raised the prospect of surrender but Zukhov IIRC said no whatever happens we will ultimately win - like yourself I see a very close tipping point and swapping Tirpitz for a Panzer Division could be it

Edited because the original reads as though he offered terms to Hitler
Stalin did discuss the option of a negotiated peace at one point.
I ask all of you to read Antony Beevor, an eminent historian and an author of (in my view) of gifted status, read his books.
PS I am not AB by the way.
 
Except that the Yanks didn’t have little boy ready until after the surrender of Germany and I still think politics would have entered the issue. Plus they didn’t want the Russians to know. Japan was considerably less complicated.

I think people have forgotten the fact that we didn’t have the bomb. The concept of being able to nuke Moscow would have been very appealing to Patton.


Its a comforting fantasy the Germans cling to the were too 'civilised' to be nuked in 1945, but alas, the preliminary target list had even been drawn up.

And once they started finding KZ's, any hope the Germans had they would be regarded as homo superior rather went up in smoke.
 

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
.....and if my dad had tits he would have been my mum....you can twist and re-configure it any way you like, that's what war games are for, shuffling models and pin flags on a games board, The end result would have been the same. whataboutery and IF, has millions of combinations, what if the americans had the atomic bomb in 1940, what if the Germans didn't have Von Braun, what if Roosevelt was assassinated in 1939, what if Churchill never existed, and lord Halifax handed over the UK to Hitler. What if my father hadn't been posted to Burma..................What if McGuiness and Adams hadn't been born.........And paisley was a Muslim...FFS

This "What If" has no end...its a pointless exercise.
Yes but, oh that’s another story.
 

diverman

LE
Book Reviewer
If Hitler had delayed until September 3rd 1941 and the Japs had still done their thing three months later, it may well have been that the whole BEF shambles would have been delayed a year and been morphed into Overlord a year early.

It somewhat depends on whether the Germans went east beyond Poland, or not. If they’d not opened that front, then things may have played out quite differently in the west. Indeed, would the Soviets have opened the front themselves?

All Barbarosa did was increase WW2 for Hitler from a war on four active fronts to a war on five fronts with the subsequent stretching of resources to eventual breaking point and collapse. It was the first resources intensive war.
 
The assault guns that were being developed then would have greatly helped...like the SAU 40 on SOMUA chassis

View attachment 479195
Its resemblance to the M4 is striking, interesting vehicle did any actually get used anywhere. The germans did relocate french kit to other regions under their influence.

With regard to the Char B, i know tis a comic book, commando comic did a great story about 30 years ago where enough french tanks were hidden in North Africa to knock out the allies...

In reality though if you look at british and american tanks that were designed then fielded up to 1942/43 comparing them with the later Pz iv v vi the calibre was one of the main features,
 
Its resemblance to the M4 is striking, interesting vehicle did any actually get used anywhere. The germans did relocate french kit to other regions under their influence.

With regard to the Char B, i know tis a comic book, commando comic did a great story about 30 years ago where enough french tanks were hidden in North Africa to knock out the allies...

In reality though if you look at british and american tanks that were designed then fielded up to 1942/43 comparing them with the later Pz iv v vi the calibre was one of the main features,

le Char goes to Russland

 
Yay and Nay - lets not forget she can trade overland (which she does via the USSR) and she has the resources of much of the continent - so a Blockade of German shipping isn't the same as blockading Germany

OVerland trade is vastly less efficient than shipping. Equally, the two routes into Russia are the back and beyond through the Russian hitnerland, which is never going to be efficient, cheap or easy, or through Iran, which was neutral.

To insert a What if at this point - What if Hitler abandons the Hipper Bismark et al and limits the Kriegsmarine and associated U boat threat to counter invasion plus a nuisance to the UK .
However threatening it was at times in the big picture the German Naval effort achieved little more than adding to the death toll.

That's a shed load of steel - diesel and manpower that's now available for Tanks and Trucks and were talking a nation with aspirations of being a dominant continental power a navy to project power can come later.

An extra 10 panzer divisions on the Eastern front (which can be supported as all that fuels not being sunk in the Atlantic) could swing that theatre. Stalin was teetering on the edge in late 41 just a small nudge and he sues for peace.

If memory serves we had about 430 Destroyers and Frigates on the Royal Navy's books in 1939. We built 239 Flower Classes alone. Germany's ship building ability, even if it was switched to just U-boats could note compete. That list is also missing all the ships that were converted to ASW ship as part of the RNPS.
The same applies on land, only its worse. We had the US to back us up production wise.

Great post, very well put. Its lose not loose by the way....just sayin...
I shall prostrate myself before you and beg forgiveness.


really interesting not actually much about Arras
A few years ago I found a report and newspaper clippings preserved by Martel (the commander of the attack). I made them into a couple of articles.
Part 1, part 2, part 3.

l tank in the West at the time and that an improved version, the B1 Ter, was supposed to enter production

The A.12 Matilda would like a word please :D

There were other "exchanges" of equipment; the French purchased some 3,7 in. batteries for air defense and the BEF received the 25 mm ATK cannon which, in spite of its diminutive size and calibre, showed that it could destroy all German Panzer including the Pz IV.

That's not much of an achievement. The German tanks back then had at most 30mm of armour. and generally when compared to anything the British or French had, were a inferior and a bit shit.
Now, don't get me wrong the SS-34 was a damn good anti-tank gun, for its time. Small handy and a bit like an enlarged anti-tank rifle. But saying "it can kill a German panzer in 1940" isn't much of a bench mark.
 
Its a comforting fantasy the Germans cling to the were too 'civilised' to be nuked in 1945, but alas, the preliminary target list had even been drawn up.

And once they started finding KZ's, any hope the Germans had they would be regarded as homo superior rather went up in smoke.
But I like this train of thought. Not so much about being civilised, surely the Idea of having a bomb drop in Germany, don’t forget the implication of the Rosenbergs in America. An atomic bomb was being researched in Germany, the Russians wanted that technology and then there were fall out issues that would have been awkward to explain. On the other hand to have wiped out Berlin could have stopped the Russians in their tracks and kept them out of Germany.

funny that the KZ’s didn’t elicit that response before the war, but then NS propaganda was quite good. Hands up if prisons anywhere in the world live up to their portrayal. I mean Germans were dying accidentally on purpose a full six years before the war started, but no one really seemed to care. Moreover the recent interpreration of Chamberlains comment “ we are not making war on the German people but the German Government” got twisted into the German Government represents the German people. Chamberlain’s original comment implied he understood that for many the NS state didn’t
 
funny that the KZ’s didn’t elicit that response before the war, but then NS propaganda was quite good. Hands up if prisons anywhere in the world live up to their portrayal. I mean Germans were dying accidentally on purpose a full six years before the war started, but no one really seemed to care. Moreover the recent interpreration of Chamberlains comment “ we are not making war on the German people but the German Government” got twisted into the German Government represents the German people. Chamberlain’s original comment implied he understood that for many the NS state didn’t

Frankly no one gave a shit before, during or after, but it was the done thing to pretend to be outraged towards the end of the war.

The yanks openly discriminated against black people even two decades after WW2, the Soviets had their gulags (also before, during and after WW2), most of the occupied territories helped put their own citizens in concentration/extermination camps, quite a few countries hated poofs, Jews and gypsies etc etc
 
I didn't read the whole thread, but I miss one and in my opinion the only viable point in this discussion.
Hitler had to start the war in 1939. Germany was bankrupt by then.
Depleted by the armament efforts, the German economy was only able to save itself from collapse and the state from bankruptcy in the war that Hitler started prematurely in 1939. As intended by him, the exploitation of the occupied territories soon made a substantial contribution to meeting the arms requirements, supplying the German population and repaying the state's debts.
 
I didn't read the whole thread, but I miss one and in my opinion the only viable point in this discussion.
Hitler had to start the war in 1939. Germany was bankrupt by then.
Depleted by the armament efforts, the German economy was only able to save itself from collapse and the state from bankruptcy in the war that Hitler started prematurely in 1939. As intended by him, the exploitation of the occupied territories soon made a substantial contribution to meeting the arms requirements, supplying the German population and repaying the state's debts.


Im not sure that version is 100% true or just another story to badmouth the Nazis/Adolf.
The UK had massive debts in the 30s (including defaulting in 1934), Germany wasnt the only country living on the never-never.
 
OVerland trade is vastly less efficient than shipping. Equally, the two routes into Russia are the back and beyond through the Russian hitnerland, which is never going to be efficient, cheap or easy, or through Iran, which was neutral.



If memory serves we had about 430 Destroyers and Frigates on the Royal Navy's books in 1939. We built 239 Flower Classes alone. Germany's ship building ability, even if it was switched to just U-boats could note compete. That list is also missing all the ships that were converted to ASW ship as part of the RNPS.
The same applies on land, only its worse. We had the US to back us up production wise.


I shall prostrate myself before you and beg forgiveness.


A few years ago I found a report and newspaper clippings preserved by Martel (the commander of the attack). I made them into a couple of articles.
Part 1, part 2, part 3.



The A.12 Matilda would like a word please :D



That's not much of an achievement. The German tanks back then had at most 30mm of armour. and generally when compared to anything the British or French had, were a inferior and a bit shit.
Now, don't get me wrong the SS-34 was a damn good anti-tank gun, for its time. Small handy and a bit like an enlarged anti-tank rifle. But saying "it can kill a German panzer in 1940" isn't much of a bench mark.

Club Swinger said:
Great post, very well put. Its lose not loose by the way....just sayin...
I shall prostrate myself before you and beg forgiveness.

Take Fifty lashes and we're all good....
 
Oh I dunno. His intent to build out the Autobahn system In the 30s was a good decision. After Sept 3rd 1939, I would agree with you.
The VW was a winner , so were the Auto Unions ( literally ) and the 6 wheeled Mercs were a work of art .
Kriegslok locomotives were magnificent , too .
Solid , warm centrally heated barracks near town centres , or at least with taxi ranks outside , shows the mind of genius
 
But I like this train of thought. Not so much about being civilised, surely the Idea of having a bomb drop in Germany, don’t forget the implication of the Rosenbergs in America. An atomic bomb was being researched in Germany, the Russians wanted that technology and then there were fall out issues that would have been awkward to explain. On the other hand to have wiped out Berlin could have stopped the Russians in their tracks and kept them out of Germany.

funny that the KZ’s didn’t elicit that response before the war, but then NS propaganda was quite good. Hands up if prisons anywhere in the world live up to their portrayal. I mean Germans were dying accidentally on purpose a full six years before the war started, but no one really seemed to care. Moreover the recent interpreration of Chamberlains comment “ we are not making war on the German people but the German Government” got twisted into the German Government represents the German people. Chamberlain’s original comment implied he understood that for many the NS state didn’t

alas for the Germans, their scientists weren’t using ‘Jew Science’ as Hitler called it, and got their calculations off by an order of a couple of magnitudes.

the ‘German Bomb’ was a huge thing, many tonnes, and wouldn't have gone critical, just fizzled like a big dirty bomb.
 
Im not sure that version is 100% true or just another story to badmouth the Nazis/Adolf.
The UK had massive debts in the 30s (including defaulting in 1934), Germany wasnt the only country living on the never-never.
To speak ill of Hitler and the Nazis would be practically and factually impossible, everything that could possibly be said is true.
The UK had massive public debt but was not as isolated as Germany and unlike Germany, was still creditworthy. One must not forget that the Nazis tried everything to get money, "taxes" on the assets of fleeing Jews, which means nothing else but robbing them of everything, blackmail, fines for the "Reichskristallnacht" and last but not least the KdF-Wagon scam.

Reichsschuld.png

This debts were backed through nothing.
 
I didn't read the whole thread, but I miss one and in my opinion the only viable point in this discussion.
Hitler had to start the war in 1939. Germany was bankrupt by then.
Depleted by the armament efforts, the German economy was only able to save itself from collapse and the state from bankruptcy in the war that Hitler started prematurely in 1939. As intended by him, the exploitation of the occupied territories soon made a substantial contribution to meeting the arms requirements, supplying the German population and repaying the state's debts.

Yes. But with two additional factors.

1. The primary aim (and leitmotif) of Nazi ideology was to rid Germany (and by extension the world) of the Jews. The secondary and interwoven aim was to provide Germany with “Lebensraum“ in the east.

2. The ideal opportunity to start the war was provided by Stalin’s USSR in the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the secret protocols to partition Eastern Europe.

Both Moscow and Berlin believed they had outwitted each other.

For Hitler, it ensured his rear was secure for the envisaged quick defeat of France and coming to terms with the U.K. Before his assault on the East.

For Stalin, it ensured that the Soviet Union stayed out of an envisaged long attritional war between equally matched capitalist enemies (a la WW1); while it bided its time, built up its resources and chose the right moment to steamroller the foreseen exhausted armies to the sea, supported by communist fifth columns, particularly in France.

As we now know; It didn’t go as either totalitarian dictator expected.
 
I wonder if Japan had gone early and concentrated on the British, Dutch and French colonies would uncle sam had stayed at home and would our reinforcements got there in time and been of sufficient quality to sort out Tojo's battle proven Army and air forces.
Indeed what affect would that have had on Itler.

The US and Japan had been on a collision course for several years leading up to Pearl Harbour, I'm not sure the Japanese were capable of that degree of restraint.....

See here for an interesting discussion... :

 

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