Army Rumour Service

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Poland 1939 Was Hitler Right

The whole point is Germany did not need to attack any country. No point in starting WW2.

Of course, I agree with it. But could Hitler win? In theory it was possible. So where Hitler had made his main mistake? Capturing Czech part of Czechoslovakia? Apparently no. Major powers just swallowed this act of naked aggression. Encouraged by it Hitler invaded Poland. What one could expect? It can not be regarded as a mistake in the context of Hitler's political line. As for invasion in France then it was apparent success. Hitler went from one victory to another one.
So where he made his main mistakes. I see 2 such mistakes:
1. Heavy bombing of the UK and
2. Too early invasion in the Soviet union.
The first action gave nothing but closed way to honourable peace deal with London that Hitler really needed.
Hitler underestimated Russia (that time existed under name the Soviet union).
As a result Moscow and London became allies, maybe the most strange allies in the modern history. It was Hitler's grave mistake to allow such an alliance.
 
Nobody in their right mind would.
Neat deflection but you know what I mean. I mean France is the natural leader of the continent:rolleyes:. That’s the point of these politics, someone has always tried. It it wasn’t them it was the Austrians or the Spanish. That’s to be expected as normal
 
Neat deflection but you know what I mean. I mean France is the natural leader of the continent:rolleyes:. That’s the point of these politics, someone has always tried. It it wasn’t them it was the Austrians or the Spanish. That’s to be expected as normal
There was never a single overwhelming power on the European continent since Rome. And no regimes as mass-murderous as those of Stalin and Hitler.
 
.........Russia (that time existed under name the Soviet union) ........

Interesting demonstration by a Russian of the conflation of Russia and the Soviet Union. Ostensibly, in the USSR, Russia was just the biggest republic in a union of republics. However that was a convenient fiction for the reality of the Soviet Union just being a continuation of the Tsarist Russian Empire. In the same way Moscow appropriated all the WW2 casualty figures of the Soviet Union (and occupied territories) as Russian. While in fact the real Russian population sustained far less casualties than Ukraine or Belarus.
 
There was never a single overwhelming power on the European continent since Rome. And no regimes as mass-murderous as those of Stalin and Hitler.
OOh I don't know, proportionately probably Rome was. The point is that it was acceptable that if you didn't comply you were in for it. We have a purely Modern take on these matters, the Ottomans in the East were certainly not bothered any more than those partaking in German 30 Years war.
 
Interesting demonstration by a Russian of the conflation of Russia and the Soviet Union. Ostensibly, in the USSR, Russia was just the biggest republic in a union of republics. However that was a convenient fiction for the reality of the Soviet Union just being a continuation of the Tsarist Russian Empire. In the same way Moscow appropriated all the WW2 casualty figures of the Soviet Union (and occupied territories) as Russian. While in fact the real Russian population sustained far less casualties than Ukraine or Belarus.
Soviet Marshall Ivan (Hovhannes) Bagramyan (ethnically Armenian himself)
once said that if a regiment contains less than 50% of Russians then it should be disbanded because it is not ready to fight.
Btw, once Stalin said that he is not Georgian but Russian of Georgian origin.
 
Soviet Marshall Ivan (Hovhannes) Bagramyan (ethnically Armenian himself)
once said that if a regiment contains less than 50% of Russians then it should be disbanded because it is not ready to fight.
Btw, once Stalin said that he is not Georgian but Russian of Georgian origin.
Proves my point.

The Muscovite Mindset in action. If you want to be of the system, you must assimilate. The Russian people, having been subjected to this for the longest, are viewed as the most reliable to the regime as they have received the longest conditioning in obedience.
 
The whole point is Germany did not need to attack any country. No point in starting WW2. The facts are that both Berlin and Moscow were bent on European wars of aggression and conquest by ideological choice. (...)
It wouldn't be a very interesting thread if we simply assumed that WWII didn't start in the first place.
 
But Hitler (in my scenario) would be able to receive oil and other goods from ... the Soviet union.
We've covered this subject before. Germany was not getting enough oil and other resources from the Soviet Union to make up for the loss of imports from the rest of the world. The Soviets weren't completely stupid. They sold oil to the Germans, but not enough to allow the Germans to build up a stockpile. Instead, the Germans were running their stockpiles down and would have run out of oil if they didn't find another source.

I've also posted world oil production figures for 1940. Romania was incapable of supplying enough for Germany, let alone supply Italy, Hungary Finland, and the civilian needs of occupied Europe.

Once Germany invaded Poland in 1939, the clock was ticking and they had a limited time to either knock the UK out of the war or else conquer the Soviet Union and exploit their resources.

We understand that Hitler would not inform Stalin about exact date of the invasion and about any plans for such an invasion. I suppose that in the case with Turkey Hitler could propose Stalin (in Molotov-Ribbentrop pact style) to take big parts of Turkey - historically Georgian and Armenian lands including mount Ararat. Stalin, being ethnically Georgian himself would accept such an interesting offer.
I have previously on this thread posted quotes from Mein Kampf showing that Hitler didn't believe that Stalin would honour any agreement or treaty made.

As for imaginary attack of Germany by the Soviet union, then it looks as implausible. Germany was much stronger than Finland. From formal point of view the Red army won in 1940 but it was Pyrrhic victory. So Stalin understood that war with Germany would be too risky to unleash it. Stalin followed communist strategy - to watch epic battle between 'capitalist dogs' and wait for 'world revolution'.
Hitler in my scenario could instigate anti-British revolution in India. Stalin, no doubt would contribute to it, would help local pro-communist activists.
Hitler could postpone invasion in the Soviet union for years and having at hand the whole European industry would be able to expand German navy to compete with British one. Hitler could not bomb the UK at all but could propose repeatedly a honourable peace. The proposition could be accepted and Hitler would be in an excellent position to invade the Soviet union in this case voided such a potential ally as the UK.
See what I said above. Once the war started Germany had a very limited window of time in which to succeed. They could not win a protracted war. The same considerations led to Germany's defeat in WWI.

Anyway, I'm absolutely sure that Hitler was not properly prepared to invade the Soviet union in 1941.
I think that it is a safe conclusion in hind sight that the Germans were not properly prepared for the war. Once it started however there was no going back.

Germany made peace overtures to Britain after the fall of France, but the British rejected them. There is strong evidence, including quotes in this thread from Mein Kampt, that indicated that Hitler thought he could negotiate a deal with Britain whereby Germany would get a free hand to do whatever they willed in eastern Europe in return for leaving the rest of the world to Britain.

Operation Sea Lion (the planned invasion of Britain), of which the Battle of Britain was an opening phase, was probably intended mainly to pose a credible enough threat to bring Britain to the bargaining table. It didn't work, and so Germany found themselves starting off Operation Barbarosa with one hand tied behind their back.
 
We've covered this subject before. Germany was not getting enough oil and other resources from the Soviet Union to make up for the loss of imports from the rest of the world. The Soviets weren't completely stupid. They sold oil to the Germans, but not enough to allow the Germans to build up a stockpile. Instead, the Germans were running their stockpiles down and would have run out of oil if they didn't find another source.

I've also posted world oil production figures for 1940. Romania was incapable of supplying enough for Germany, let alone supply Italy, Hungary Finland, and the civilian needs of occupied Europe.

Once Germany invaded Poland in 1939, the clock was ticking and they had a limited time to either knock the UK out of the war or else conquer the Soviet Union and exploit their resources.


I have previously on this thread posted quotes from Mein Kampf showing that Hitler didn't believe that Stalin would honour any agreement or treaty made.


See what I said above. Once the war started Germany had a very limited window of time in which to succeed. They could not win a protracted war. The same considerations led to Germany's defeat in WWI.


I think that it is a safe conclusion in hind sight that the Germans were not properly prepared for the war. Once it started however there was no going back.

Germany made peace overtures to Britain after the fall of France, but the British rejected them. There is strong evidence, including quotes in this thread from Mein Kampt, that indicated that Hitler thought he could negotiate a deal with Britain whereby Germany would get a free hand to do whatever they willed in eastern Europe in return for leaving the rest of the world to Britain.

Operation Sea Lion (the planned invasion of Britain), of which the Battle of Britain was an opening phase, was probably intended mainly to pose a credible enough threat to bring Britain to the bargaining table. It didn't work, and so Germany found themselves starting off Operation Barbarosa with one hand tied behind their back.
What I have never understood is why Hitler made Moscow the main objective in Operation Barborossa in 1941 and not go all out with the main objective being the capture of the oilfields in the Caucasus as they did in 1942.

If the Germans had captured Moscow, the Soviets would have just moved their Capital to a city further east. The Soviets had also moved most of their industry out of range of the Luftwaffe on the other side of the Urals. However if they had lost the oil fields the Soviet war machine would have ground to a halt. They would have had to rely on any oil that could somehow be transported overland from Iran or via Allied Arctic convoys.

The last German offensive of WW2 was to try to recapture the Southern Hungarian oilfields in March 1945 in Operation Spring Awakening by 6th SS Panzer Army as they had no other source of oil to continue the war.

Operation Spring Awakening.
 
Interesting demonstration by a Russian of the conflation of Russia and the Soviet Union. Ostensibly, in the USSR, Russia was just the biggest republic in a union of republics. However that was a convenient fiction for the reality of the Soviet Union just being a continuation of the Tsarist Russian Empire. In the same way Moscow appropriated all the WW2 casualty figures of the Soviet Union (and occupied territories) as Russian. While in fact the real Russian population sustained far less casualties than Ukraine or Belarus.
In the cold war times especially for the average squaddy the term Soviet and Russian meant the same and was interchangable. I was aware of the Ukraine but just thought it was part of Russia. The same with Belarus. I had never heard of it. I knew that the Baltics had been independent between 1919 and 1940. The only thing I really knew about Georgia was that old Jo came from there and assumed that it was part of Russia. As for the Stans, I knew old Harry Flashman had been there in 'Flashman at the Charge' in 1857. And I was one of the more well read among the squaddy fraternity.
 
It wouldn't be a very interesting thread if we simply assumed that WWII didn't start in the first place.
But it answers the question. :cool:
 
In the cold war times especially for the average squaddy the term Soviet and Russian meant the same and was interchangable. I was aware of the Ukraine but just thought it was part of Russia. The same with Belarus. I had never heard of it. I knew that the Baltics had been independent between 1919 and 1940. The only thing I really knew about Georgia was that old Jo came from there and assumed that it was part of Russia. As for the Stans, I knew old Harry Flashman had been there in 'Flashman at the Charge' in 1857. And I was one of the more well read among the squaddy fraternity.
Its what Moscow's propaganda counted on - the level of general ignorance of historical and geographical issues beyond their immediate concerns amongst the populations of the Western Allies. The majority of Academics in the West (especially Britain) were comfortable with Communism, eulogised Stalin and disbelieved/ignored/exonerated Moscow's enormous crimes against humanity. The politicians, when they were aware of them and recognised them, tended to ignore them in the face of post-War realpolitik. And he same general strategy is being used now by Moscow with the addition of very active disinformation and info ops campaigns.
 
What I have never understood is why Hitler ..........

He was a criminally insane, monomaniacal but charismatic madman.

And Stalin was a scheming paranoid psychopath.
 
We've covered this subject before. Germany was not getting enough oil and other resources from the Soviet Union to make up for the loss of imports from the rest of the world. The Soviets weren't completely stupid. They sold oil to the Germans, but not enough to allow the Germans to build up a stockpile. Instead, the Germans were running their stockpiles down and would have run out of oil if they didn't find another source.

I've also posted world oil production figures for 1940. Romania was incapable of supplying enough for Germany, let alone supply Italy, Hungary Finland, and the civilian needs of occupied Europe.

Once Germany invaded Poland in 1939, the clock was ticking and they had a limited time to either knock the UK out of the war or else conquer the Soviet Union and exploit their resources.


I have previously on this thread posted quotes from Mein Kampf showing that Hitler didn't believe that Stalin would honour any agreement or treaty made.


See what I said above. Once the war started Germany had a very limited window of time in which to succeed. They could not win a protracted war. The same considerations led to Germany's defeat in WWI.


I think that it is a safe conclusion in hind sight that the Germans were not properly prepared for the war. Once it started however there was no going back.

Germany made peace overtures to Britain after the fall of France, but the British rejected them. There is strong evidence, including quotes in this thread from Mein Kampt, that indicated that Hitler thought he could negotiate a deal with Britain whereby Germany would get a free hand to do whatever they willed in eastern Europe in return for leaving the rest of the world to Britain.

Operation Sea Lion (the planned invasion of Britain), of which the Battle of Britain was an opening phase, was probably intended mainly to pose a credible enough threat to bring Britain to the bargaining table. It didn't work, and so Germany found themselves starting off Operation Barbarosa with one hand tied behind their back.
I propose to enumerate important statements in our discussion, not to repeat well-known facts, points where we agree or disagree.
F - means well known fact
A - an opinion that we agree with
D - an opinion where we disagree
U - unresolved point of view for further discussion.
----------
F01 - Hitler unleashing WW2 had a huge, strategic level problem with oil.
U02 - Romanian oil, oil supplies from the Soviet union, production of synthetic oil were just partial/temporary solutions to the problem outlined in F01 but there are military ways to solve F01 problem, including
U02.1 - occupation of the Soviet union or at least Baku oilfields and
U02.2 - occupation of Turkey and the ME, alliance with Iran.
U02.3 - from my point of view option U02.2 was more realistic and easier to implement.
F03 - In Mein Kampf Hitler outlined Russia as his main target of German expansion.
U03.1 - F03 doesn't mean that Hitler planned to make it at the first opportunity.
U03.2 - In Mein Kampf Hitler established his ideological principles but principles and real politics are different matters. Some ideologically motivated objectives could be postponed.
U03.3 - From my point of view Hitler made a mistake invading the Soviet union too early, without proper preparations, with ongoing war with the UK and with remaining F01 problem.
U04 - That time no one country, no one politician blindly believed other one.
U04.1 Stalin and Hitler didn't believe each other.
A05 - Hitler sought peace deal with the UK.
U05.1 - By bombing campaign of the UK Hitler undermined any chances to reach the peace deal or force the UK to capitulate. It was one of Hitler's main mistakes.
U05.2 - Military pressure on the UK should be continued through U-boats based blockade, invasion to the ME and instigation of riots in India.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
I propose to enumerate important statements in our discussion, not to repeat well-known facts, points where we agree or disagree.
F - means well known fact
A - an opinion that we agree with
D - an opinion where we disagree
U - unresolved point of view for further discussion.
----------
Subdivisions necessary:
FS/R - fact, Soviet/Russian.
FA&T - fact, accurate & true.
 
Fact: Moscow and Berlin both saw each other and the Western democracies as foes standing in the way of their respective plans for territorial expansion and geopolitical dominance.

Fact: In both cases, their then current ideological bents were an additional layer on top of deeply ingrained historical ambitions.

Fact: They both believed that each could use and outwit the other to start with in order to achieve their ultimate aims. And they started WW2 with the invasion and intended obliteration of Poland and a carve up of east-central Europe.

Fact: Both miscalculated. One was crushed. The other managed to recover and partially achieve its aims.

Fact: The one that was crushed, had its exceptionalist and supremacist cancer excised and regained a healthy place in the community of nations. Whereas the other has not and continues to harbour expansionist and hegemonic ambitions.
 
It wouldn't be a very interesting thread if we simply assumed that WWII didn't start in the first place.
That's only if you think WWII started in 1939. There's others that consider it started with Manchuko. The fighting ended in 1945 it didn't actually end until 1990 when Germany formally accepted the Oder Neisse Line- so think of it that way and the cold war was part of World WAR 2 :cool:
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
That's only if you think WWII started in 1939. There's others that consider it started with Manchuko. The fighting ended in 1945 it didn't actually end until 1990 when Germany formally accepted the Oder Neisse Line- so think of it that way and the cold war was part of World WAR 2 :cool:

I feel I am now a part of history, having just witnessed the birth of the campaign to award all who served in the BAOR and BFG with the Defence Medal and the France and Germany Star.
 
What I have never understood is why Hitler made Moscow the main objective in Operation Barborossa in 1941 and not go all out with the main objective being the capture of the oilfields in the Caucasus as they did in 1942.

If the Germans had captured Moscow, the Soviets would have just moved their Capital to a city further east. The Soviets had also moved most of their industry out of range of the Luftwaffe on the other side of the Urals. However if they had lost the oil fields the Soviet war machine would have ground to a halt. They would have had to rely on any oil that could somehow be transported overland from Iran or via Allied Arctic convoys.

The last German offensive of WW2 was to try to recapture the Southern Hungarian oilfields in March 1945 in Operation Spring Awakening by 6th SS Panzer Army as they had no other source of oil to continue the war.

Operation Spring Awakening.

Weren't they still producing synthetic oil then?
 

Latest Threads

Top