Poland 1939 Was Hitler Right

I didn't say that the soviet union would capitulate, I said that the supplies and intervention from the west would tilt the balance to the Germans, take Moscow since you mention it,
"According to research by a team of Soviet historians, the Soviet Union lost a staggering 20,500 tanks from June 22 to December 31, 1941. At the end of November 1941, only 670 Soviet tanks were available to defend Moscow—that is, in the recently formed Kalinin, Western, and Southwestern Fronts. Only 205 of these tanks were heavy or medium types, and most of their strength was concentrated in the Western Front, with the Kalinin Front having only two tank battalions (67 tanks) and the Southwestern Front two tank brigades (30 tanks).
Researchers also estimate that British-supplied tanks made up 30 to 40 percent of the entire heavy and medium tank strength of Soviet forces before Moscow at the beginning of December 1941, "

Quote from Historynet.
Whether the Germans could have capitalised on your shortages is open to speculation, they may have won the battle of Moscow and Russia might have sued for peace or they might not, but it would have been a much harder fight without the British assistance.
Had Hitler won the land he required from Russia there is ample evidence to suggest that there would be a period of consolidation whereby the non Aryan peoples would be either deported to Siberia or exterminated. There would be a belt of satellite states to the north, east, south and west with watchdog states comprising Finland , Turkey and Spain on the corners.
There is also evidence to suggest that he wanted an empire in central Africa at some point in the future, however none of that was to impinge on the taking and clearing of his greater Germany.
So with using Turkey as a watchdog state there is little sign of him wanting to take control of the middle east so your thoughts there are flawed.
Yes Germany was researching Atomic weapons but again there is little to suggest that his team would have obtained a weapon first. The remainder of your post is just pie in the sky.
First of all I would like to note that the counter offensive near Moscow in December 1941 is something personal for me. My Grandfather as a cavalryman in Siberian Dovator dvision took part in it and was badly wounded (later he was killed during the Stalingrad battle).
I agree that British military supplies in the first months maybe were not so huge in numbers but were essentially important due to catastrophic shortage in hardware - tanks and planes.
That the Soviet victories of late 1941 were won with Soviet blood and largely with Soviet weapons is beyond dispute.
Western authors generally agreed that even if Lend-Lease was important from 1943 on, as quantities of aid dramatically increased, the aid was far too little and late to make a difference in the decisive battles of 1941–1942.
However, and it is a very important
... newly available evidence paints a very different picture from the received wisdom. In particular, it shows that British Lend-Lease assistance to the Soviet Union in late 1941 and early 1942 played a far more significant part in the defense of Moscow and the revival of Soviet fortunes in late 1941 than has been acknowledged.
Particularly important for the Soviets in late 1941 were British-supplied tanks and aircraft
Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Yes, according to statistics allied aid represented “only" 4 percent of Soviet production for the entire war. But I believe that quality of these 4% can not be underestimated.
I believe that British tanks supplied in 1941 were extremely important that time
For me it is very interesting when exactly British tanks had arrived in 1941 and how they were used.
The British Military Mission to Moscow noted that by December 9, about ninety British tanks had already been in action with Soviet forces. The first of these units to have seen action seems to have been the 138th Independent Tank Battalion (with twenty-one British tanks), which was involved in stemming the advance of German units in the region of the Volga Reservoir to the north of Moscow in late November. In fact the British intercepted German communications indicating that German forces had first come in contact with British tanks on the Eastern front on November 26, 1941.
So the first British tanks were used during the last days of defensive phase of the battle for Moscow and British tanks played role in the counter offensive that started 5 December.
Yes, it is true that
the Matilda Mk II and Valentine tanks supplied by the British were certainly inferior to the Soviets’ homegrown T-34 and KV-1
But it is important to note that
Soviet production of the T-34 (and to a lesser extent the KV series), was only just getting seriously underway in 1942, and Soviet production was well below plan targets
And though rapid increases in tank firepower would soon render the 40mm two-pounder main gun of the Matilda and Valentine suitable for use on light tanks only, the armor protection of these British models put them firmly in the heavy and medium categories, respectively. Both were superior to all but the Soviet KV-1 and T-34 in armor, and indeed even their much maligned winter cross-country performance was comparable to most Soviet tanks excluding the KV-1 and T-34.
It should be noted that
A steady stream of British-made tanks continued to flow into the Red Army through the spring and summer of 1942. Canada would eventually produce 1,420 Valentines, almost exclusively for delivery to the Soviet Union. By July 1942 the Red Army had 13,500 tanks in service, with more than 16 percent of those imported, and more than half of those British.
As a result
Lend-Lease aid did not “save” the Soviet Union from defeat during the Battle of Moscow. But the speed at which Britain in particular was willing and able to provide aid to the Soviet Union, and at which the Soviet Union was able to put foreign equipment into frontline use, is still an underappreciated part of this story. During the bitter fighting of the winter of 1941–1942, British aid made a crucial difference.
Couldn't agree more.
 
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^ See you've done it again. This thread is about Poland not the Great Patriotic war. And I take it badly too from the First lot as one of My Great Uncle was a Prussian Cavalryman but at least he died giving Russia the thrashing it deserved at the Masurian Lakes in 1914.
 
Wrong again:


The aerial campaign for Singapore began at the outset of the invasion of Malaya. Early on 8 December 1941, Singapore was bombed for the first time by long-range Japanese aircraft, such as the Mitsubishi G3M2 "Nell" and the Mitsubishi G4M1 "Betty", based in Japanese-occupied Indochina. The bombers struck the city centre as well as the Sembawang Naval Base and the island's northern airfields. After this first raid, throughout the rest of December, there were a number of false alerts and several infrequent and sporadic hit-and-run attacks on outlying military installations such as the Naval Base, but no actual raids on Singapore City. The situation had become so desperate that one British soldier took to the middle of a road to fire his Vickers machine gun at any aircraft that passed. He could only say: "The bloody bastards will never think of looking for me in the open, and I want to see a bloody plane brought down."[79]

The next recorded raid on the city occurred on the night of 29 December, and nightly raids ensued for over a week, only to be accompanied by daylight raids from 12 January 1942 onward.[80] In the days that followed, as the Japanese army drew ever nearer to Singapore Island, the day and night raids increased in frequency and intensity, resulting in thousands of civilian casualties, up to the time of the British surrender.[81]


Firefighters battle the results of a Japanese air raid on 8 February 1942.
During the month of December, a total of 51 Hawker Hurricane Mk II fighters were sent to Singapore, with 24 pilots, the nuclei of five squadrons. They arrived on 3 January 1942, by which stage the Brewster Buffalo squadrons had been overwhelmed. No. 232 Squadron RAF was formed and No. 488 Squadron RNZAF, a Buffalo squadron, had converted to Hurricanes. 232 Squadron became operational on 20 January and destroyed three Nakajima Ki-43 "Oscars" that day, for the loss of three Hurricanes. However, like the Buffalos before them, the Hurricanes began to suffer severe losses in intense dogfights.[Note 6][82]

During the period 27–30 January, another 48 Hurricanes arrived on the aircraft carrier HMS Indomitable.[83] Operated by No. 226 Group RAF (four squadrons),[84] they flew from an airfield code-named P1, near Palembang, Sumatra, in the Dutch East Indies, while a flight was maintained in Singapore. However, many of the Hurricanes were subsequently destroyed on the ground by air raids.[85] Indeed, the lack of an effective air early warning system throughout the campaign meant that many Allied aircraft were lost in this manner during a series of Japanese attacks against airfields.[86]


Hawker Hurricane of No. 232 Squadron RAF shot down on 8 February, along the East Coast Road
By the time of the invasion, only ten Hawker Hurricane fighters of No. 232 Squadron RAF, based at RAF Kallang, remained to provide air cover to the Allied forces on Singapore. This was because the airfields of Tengah, Seletar and Sembawang were in range of Japanese artillery at Johor Bahru. RAF Kallang was the only operational airstrip left;[87] the surviving squadrons and aircraft had withdrawn by January to reinforce the Dutch East Indies.[88]

On the morning of 9 February, a series of aerial dogfights took place over Sarimbun Beach and other western areas. In the first encounter, the last ten Hurricanes were scrambled from Kallang Airfield to intercept a Japanese formation of about 84 planes, flying from Johor to provide air cover for their invasion force.[88] The Hurricanes shot down six Japanese planes, and damaged 14 others, for the loss of one of their own.[89]

Air battles went on for the rest of the day, and by nightfall it was clear that with the few aircraft Percival had left, Kallang could no longer be used as a base. With his assent, the remaining flyable Hurricanes were withdrawn to Sumatra.[90] A squadron of Hurricane fighters took to the skies on 9 February, but was then withdrawn to the Netherlands East Indies and after that no Allied aircraft were seen again over Singapore;[91] the Japanese had achieved complete air supremacy.[92] That evening, three Fairmile Motor Launches attacked and sank several Japanese landing craft in the Johor Strait around its western channel on the evening of 9 February.[91] Later, on the evening of 10 February, General Archibald Wavell, commander of American-British-Dutch-Australian Command, ordered the transfer of all remaining Allied air force personnel to the Dutch East Indies. By this time, Kallang Airfield was so pitted with bomb craters that it was no longer usable.[88
amazing, so I’m wrong by stating the RAF’s were swept from the skies from day one and the survivors were not target practice for the IJA aircraft fur the duration of the very short campaign.
and FWIW, the RAFs claims against the IJA were to put it mildly, ‘fanciful’

bit back to your original argument about tanks in the Far East..... irrelevant. The Army has plenty of guns quite capable of defeating the light Japanese tanks, but if you are always. retreating because you are being outflanked by light forces unimpeded by jungle while you are confined to a few roads, you can have all the tanks in the world, you will still be outflanked relentlessly acd defeated.
 
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^ See you've done it again. This thread is about Poland not the Great Patriotic war. And I take it badly too from the First lot as one of My Great Uncle was a Prussian Cavalryman but at least he died giving Russia the thrashing it deserved at the Masurian Lakes in 1914.
You are right, the battle for Moscow and British military supplies made just in time are not directly related to Hitler's decision to invade Poland in 1939. However, if Stalin allowed Hitler to capture the whole Poland then hardly British military supplies would help to defend Moscow.
My Polish Great Grandfather during WW1 was subjected to German gas attack. He was treated in a hospital in Moscow, returned to his village in Siberia and soon died.
 
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In his recent post above, the resident Kremlin sock-puppet is obviously following directions from his Troll Factory supervisor.

Quickly, change the subject from 1939 when we gang-banged a prostrate Poland together with the Germans; to 1941 when we became allies of the British!

Oh, and ingratiate yourself by personally agreeing that their help was useful. We’ll give you (unwritten) permission to go against the party line here.

If Soviet Russia had not partitioned all of east-central Europe with Nazi Germany in 1939 and enabled it’s war machine with raw materials all the way through to Summer 1941; instead taking a defensive anti-German stance from the beginning; it is much less likely that the outskirts of Moscow would have been reached by the Wehrmacht in late 1941.
 
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Ah, the troll factory research department has been hard at work. The result:

A quote from Putin's already historically discredited revisionist speech coupled with a highly selective and contextualised quote by the pragmatist Churchill and quotes from statements by the arch-appeaser Halifax and Lloyd-George who had been shown up in his willingness to impose a truncated Poland post WW1 and had never forgiven the Poles for that.

A big fat freddy for their efforts trying to put lipstick on a pig. Guess what? It’s still a pig.

Stalin's de-facto alliance with Hitler through the Molotv-Ribbentrop pact enabled the start of WW2 and carved up central-eastern Europe between Moscow and Berlin.
So you agree that in 1939 British politicians regarded the occupation of Eastern Poland by the Soviet union not as an aggression but as logical action to correct unjust (from their point of view) borders.
Now let's scrutinise the secret protocol to the Molotov-ribbentrop pact
In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.
1592643361769.png


As you may see the secret protocol for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact gave some ethnically Polish lands to the Soviet sphere of influence. But later the demarcation line was set approximately along the Curzon line proposed by Western powers as Polish/Russian border after WW1.
 
First of all I would like to note that the counter offensive near Moscow in December 1941 is something personal for me. My Grandfather as a cavalryman in Siberian Dovator dvision took part in it and was badly wounded (later he was killed during the Stalingrad battle).
I agree that British military supplies in the first months maybe were not so huge in numbers but were essentially important due to catastrophic shortage in hardware - tanks and planes.


However, and it is a very important


Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Yes, according to statistics allied aid represented “only" 4 percent of Soviet production for the entire war. But I believe that quality of these 4% can not be underestimated.
I believe that British tanks supplied in 1941 were extremely important that time
For me it is very interesting when exactly British tanks had arrived in 1941 and how they were used.

So the first British tanks were used during the last days of defensive phase of the battle for Moscow and British tanks played role in the counter offensive that started 5 December.
Yes, it is true that

But it is important to note that


It should be noted that

As a result

Couldn't agree more.
Sergei

You are fighting the wrong battle here.

the reason the Germans were defeated outside Moscow were 4 fold.

already by October, Guderian was bitterly complaining ‘the Russians have learned’ and were fighting much smarter and inflicting tactical defeats on his troops.

the idiot Russian Generals were being dismissed, and far smarter Generals like Zhukov and Konev given the field. The days of sweeping German advances were over as the real masters of modern armoured warfare took the lead - Deep Battle was a far more modern doctrine than Blitzkrieg.

the Germans had grievously underestimated Russian strength, they weren’t aware that much of the huge equipment losses in the first few months of Barbarossa were already being made good by Soviet industry, or that the Russian A Team, it’s best equipped, battle hardened troops from the Far East has been moved West.

and last but not least, General Rasputitsa and his best friend General Winter came early.
 
If Soviet Russia had not partitioned all of east-central Europe with Nazi Germany in 1939 and enabled it’s war machine with raw materials all the way through to Summer 1941; instead taking a defensive anti-German stance from the beginning; it is much less likely that the outskirts of Moscow would have been reached by the Wehrmacht in late 1941.
If France/UK didn't sign the Munich agreement and Poland did allow Soviet armed forces to help Czechoslovakia then it is quite possible that Hitler's invasion in Poland did not happen and Czechoslovakia was not mutilated (also by Poland).
 
If Poland had allowed Soviet Forces into it’s country, then the Soviet Union would have occupied all of Poland in 1938, rather than half in 1939. This is what Poland fought to prevent in 1920, so why would it meekly submit to Sovietisation and Russification eighteen years later?
 
If Poland had allowed Soviet Forces into it’s country, then the Soviet Union would have occupied all of Poland in 1938, rather than half in 1939. This is what Poland fought to prevent in 1920, so why would it meekly submit to Sovietisation and Russification eighteen years later?
I believe that even a threat of common action to defend Czechoslovakia by France/UK/SU/Poland would be sufficient to stop Hitler.
Why do you think Warsaw even didn't try to defend Czechoslovakia?
 
I believe that even a threat of common action to defend Czechoslovakia by France/UK/SU/Poland would be sufficient to stop Hitler.
Why do you think Warsaw even didn't try to defend Czechoslovakia?
The UK was in no position in 1938 to go to war with Germany.
 
The UK was in no position in 1938 to go to war with Germany.
Correct. And France tried to avoid a war with Germany and Poland as well. So what Moscow could do in 1938? That time there was a civil war in Spain and the Soviet union tried to resist fascism at least there.
 
You are right, the battle for Moscow and British military supplies made just in time are not directly related to Hitler's decision to invade Poland in 1939. However, if Stalin allowed Hitler to capture the whole Poland then hardly British military supplies would help to defend Moscow.
My Polish Great Grandfather during WW1 was subjected to German gas attack. He was treated in a hospital in Moscow, returned to his village in Siberia and soon died.
Except it didn’t did it? Hitler never controlled the whole of Poland initially, cos the Russians had more than half. They had to wait for Barbarossa and withdrawal of Russian troops. So from 1st September 1939- to June 1941 half of Poland remained under Russian control, but we don’t hear about it.
 
The UK was in no position in 1938 to go to war with Germany.
I don’t quite agree there. Ideally you go to war when you’r ready, but that’s optimum. It really depends on events. The question really is would Britain go without France? In the event everyone was trying to avoid war with Germany-then. Germany wouldn’t be ready for it’s projected war much before 1944. Germany wasn’t wasn’t prepared for a showdown in Poland and the strictest criteria Hitler made with the USSR In mind was it had to be decisive and short. But I do think that Britain could have defeated Germany any time between 36 and 39. The key here is not to think in conventional terms of a slugging match rather arms length, sanctions and Blockade. in the event that was precisely that drove Both Stalin and Hitler Towards each other .
 
I don’t quite agree there. Ideally you go to war when you’r ready, but that’s optimum. It really depends on events. The question really is would Britain go without France? In the event everyone was trying to avoid war with Germany-then. Germany wouldn’t be ready for it’s projected war much before 1944. Germany wasn’t wasn’t prepared for a showdown in Poland and the strictest criteria Hitler made with the USSR In mind was it had to be decisive and short. But I do think that Britain could have defeated Germany any time between 36 and 39. The key here is not to think in conventional terms of a slugging match rather arms length, sanctions and Blockade. in the event that was precisely that drove Both Stalin and Hitler Towards each other .
fighters dear boy, fighters.
RAF was still using a lot of biplanes In 1938, the Spitfire would making its first faltering starring entrance In autumn 1938.
the RAF would have gone to war with the Luftwaffe‘s Bf109’s in Hurricanes and Gladiators.
it only had 300 Spitfires in service in September 1939.
 

W21A

LE
Book Reviewer
Would the Hurricane not have been a match for the BF 109 A-D? The Gladiator a match for the Luftwaffe biplanes?
 
fighters dear boy, fighters.
RAF was still using a lot of biplanes In 1938, the Spitfire would making its first faltering starring entrance In autumn 1938.
the RAF would have gone to war with the Luftwaffe‘s Bf109’s in Hurricanes and Gladiators.
it only had 300 Spitfires in service in September 1939.
Hurricanes weren’t a bad fighter design. The Hurricane equipped 303 Squadron was only released into the fight mid-August 1940 and yet became the top-scoring fighter squadron in the Battle of Britain.
 
Hurricanes weren’t a bad fighter design. The Hurricane equipped 303 Squadron was only released into the fight mid-August 1940 and yet became the top-scoring fighter squadron in the Battle of Britain.
effect was not the cause.

if you’d put the battle hardened Polish pilots of 303 in Spitfires' they‘d have done even better.

yes, the Hurricane was slightly more manouverable than a Bf109, but it needed a Good pilot to exploit that edge. Get it wrong, and it was a slower plane than the Bf109 in a turning fight.
the Spitfire however, even in the hands of an average pilot was an exceptional fighter.
 
fighters dear boy, fighters.
RAF was still using a lot of biplanes In 1938, the Spitfire would making its first faltering starring entrance In autumn 1938.
the RAF would have gone to war with the Luftwaffe‘s Bf109’s in Hurricanes and Gladiators.
it only had 300 Spitfires in service in September 1939.
Again. Let’s just consider that. Hitler didn’t attack the British and the French immediately. He simply didn’t have the resources. The fight comes when one side or the other launches an attack. It tells you that basically, what we had didn’t matter that much in context. What we lost at Dunkirk was fairly serious but we didn’t lose the war. Germans were always on the edge of their limit of range, they always had a long supply line. Now if no one attacks it’s hiatus, hiatus is time,
Time is your friend. But supposing we had limited action to blockade back in 36. Sanctions can be powerful things if handled correctly. We were dealing with Germany, companies like Courtolds , BP, etc and that’s revenue. We did a deal with Germany AGNA. Was that really necessary then, especially when it relaxed conditions of Versailles which we subsequently Went to war over in principle.
 
Again. Let’s just consider that. Hitler didn’t attack the British and the French immediately. He simply didn’t have the resources. The fight comes when one side or the other launches an attack. It tells you that basically, what we had didn’t matter that much in context. What we lost at Dunkirk was fairly serious but we didn’t lose the war. Germans were always on the edge of their limit of range, they always had a long supply line. Now if no one attacks it’s hiatus, hiatus is time,
Time is your friend. But supposing we had limited action to blockade back in 36. Sanctions can be powerful things if handled correctly. We were dealing with Germany, companies like Courtolds , BP, etc and that’s revenue. We did a deal with Germany AGNA. Was that really necessary then, especially when it relaxed conditions of Versailles which we subsequently Went to war over in principle.
Chamberlain gets a bad press, but he bought the RAF a year to stand up the worlds first integrated air defence network.
1938, it would have been standing patrols and the Observer Corp, not fighter controllers with the all seeing eye of Chain Home.
 

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