Poland 1939 Was Hitler Right

Using a tank force that was one-third British, the Soviets having rather negligently mislaid some 20,000 of their own armoured fighting vehicles by that point...
Do you mean that Great Britain had in 1941 60,000 tanks?
 
Ah, wilful obtuseness; how quaint!
Or is the current iteration of the sock puppet really dim?
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Do you mean that Great Britain had in 1941 60,000 tanks?
Evidently neither reading comprehension, nor basic mathematics, are among your skills.

Take more water with it, there's a good chap, and try again once you've slept it off and the hangover's eased.
 
Evidently neither reading comprehension, nor basic mathematics, are among your skills.

Take more water with it, there's a good chap, and try again once you've slept it off and the hangover's eased.
Perhaps it's cheap Potato Vodka rotting the brain
 
Evidently neither reading comprehension, nor basic mathematics, are among your skills.

Take more water with it, there's a good chap, and try again once you've slept it off and the hangover's eased.
So, please, help me comprehend your post.
Using a tank force that was one-third British, the Soviets having rather negligently mislaid some 20,000 of their own armoured fighting vehicles by that point...
Do you mean that the Soviet union had in 1941 one-third of tanks that Great Britain had?
22 June 1941 the Soviet union had about 25,000 tanks. But it is only an estimate.
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jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Pl

Do you mean that the Soviet union had in 1941 one-third of tanks that Great Britain had?
22 June 1941 the Soviet union had 11,000 tanks. What is your primary source about '20,000 of their own armoured fighting vehicles'?
Actually, on 22 June 1941 the Soviet Union had about 24,000 tanks in its inventory, though a typically Soviet attitude (numbers produced mattered, maintenance did not) meant that only about 4,000 of them were actually serviceable and able to fight - hence part of why the Germans captured much of the Soviet tank force as non-runners in depots, and unlike vehicles captured from Czechoslovakia, France or the UK these were not judged useful enough to be pressed into German service even as gun tractors or conversion to Panzerjager.

By the end of November 1941, the Red Army could field fewer than 5,000 tanks, of which half were out in the Far East and less than 700 of all types (including flimsy little tankettes) were on the fronts defending Moscow. (From Zaloga and Grandsen, "Soviet Tanks and Combat Vehicles of World War 2", 1984 Arms and Armour)

All of a sudden, being gifted several hundred Valentines and Matilda II, in time to fight outside Moscow in December 1941, suddenly seems quite useful...
 
Actually, on 22 June 1941 the Soviet Union had about 24,000 tanks in its inventory, though a typically Soviet attitude (numbers produced mattered, maintenance did not) meant that only about 4,000 of them were actually serviceable and able to fight - hence part of why the Germans captured much of the Soviet tank force as non-runners in depots, and unlike vehicles captured from Czechoslovakia, France or the UK these were not judged useful enough to be pressed into German service even as gun tractors or conversion to Panzerjager.

By the end of November 1941, the Red Army could field fewer than 5,000 tanks, of which half were out in the Far East and less than 700 of all types (including flimsy little tankettes) were on the fronts defending Moscow. (From Zaloga and Grandsen, "Soviet Tanks and Combat Vehicles of World War 2", 1984 Arms and Armour)

All of a sudden, being gifted several hundred Valentines and Matilda II, in time to fight outside Moscow in December 1941, suddenly seems quite useful...
I agree with your here (also look at my edited previous post).
Indeed most of tanks were rather useless in modern warfare, were not supplied with fuel at time, were captured by the Germans the first days of the war.
But one your point was new for me. So had British forces so many tanks in 1942 - 3 times more than the Red army?
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I agree with your here (also look at my edited previous post).
Indeed most of tanks were rather useless in modern warfare, were not supplied with fuel at time, were captured by the Germans the first days of the war.
But one your point was new for me. So had British forces so many tanks in 1942 - 3 times more than the Red army?
Can you remind me where I said Britain had "3 times more than the Red army?" Because I never made any such claim.

I did point out that one-third of the tanks defending Moscow in December 1941, had been urgently supplied by Britain.
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
Can you remind me where I said Britain had "3 times more than the Red army?" Because I never made any such claim.

I did point out that one-third of the tanks defending Moscow in December 1941, had been urgently supplied by Britain.
Plus the first two convoys alone delivered more than 200 hurricanes
 
Can you remind me where I said Britain had "3 times more than the Red army?" Because I never made any such claim.

I did point out that one-third of the tanks defending Moscow in December 1941, had been urgently supplied by Britain.
There were 182 British tanks used in the battle for Moscow. It was a big number. 77 were lost.
As for Soviet forces then
As of 1 October 1941:
  • 1,252,591 men[11]
  • 1,044[12]–3,232 tanks
  • 7,600 guns
  • Initial aircraft: 936 (545 serviceable);[7] at time of counter offensive: 1,376
It is clear that British tanks were essentially important.
As for the counter offensive then Stalin used mainly domestic reserves.
Although the Wehrmacht's offensive had been stopped, German intelligence estimated that Soviet forces had no more reserves left and thus would be unable to stage a counter offensive. This estimate proved wrong, as Stalin transferred over 18 divisions, 1,700 tanks, and over 1,500 aircraft from Siberia and the Far East
 
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Recently mr.Putin published his article in the National Interest and contributed to our discussion.
He wrote about occupation of Eastern Part of Poland by the Soviet union
And here I would like to highlight the following: Western countries, as a matter of fact, agreed at that time with the Soviet actions and recognized the Soviet Union's intention to ensure its national security. Indeed, back on October 1, 1939 Winston Churchill, the First Lord of the Admiralty back then, in his speech on the radio said, "Russia has pursued a cold policy of self-interest… But that the Russian armies should stand on this line [the new Western border is meant] was clearly necessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace."
He continues
On October 4, 1939 speaking in the House of Lords British Foreign Secretary Halifax said, "…it should be recalled that the Soviet government's actions were to move the border essentially to the line recommended at the Versailles Conference by Lord Curzon... I only cite historical facts and believe they are indisputable."
Prominent British politician and statesman D. Lloyd George emphasized, "The Russian armies occupied the territories that are not Polish and that were forcibly seized by Poland after the First World War ... It would be an act of criminal insanity to put the Russian advancement on a par with the German one."
 
Ah, the troll factory research department has been hard at work. The result:

A quote from Putin's already historically discredited revisionist speech coupled with a highly selective and contextualised quote by the pragmatist Churchill and quotes from statements by the arch-appeaser Halifax and Lloyd-George who had been shown up in his willingness to impose a truncated Poland post WW1 and had never forgiven the Poles for that.

A big fat freddy for their efforts trying to put lipstick on a pig. Guess what? It’s still a pig.

Stalin's de-facto alliance with Hitler through the Molotv-Ribbentrop pact enabled the start of WW2 and carved up central-eastern Europe between Moscow and Berlin.
 
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Using a tank force that was one-third British, the Soviets having rather negligently mislaid some 20,000 of their own armoured fighting vehicles by that point, as well as suffering a collapse in tank production (the LKZ plant in Leningrad being besieged, and #183 plant being evacuated from Kharkov.)

Alexander Hill (2006), British “Lend-Lease” Tanks and the Battle for Moscow, November–December 1941—A Research Note, The Journal of Slavic Military Studies 19:2 refers.

Or a web article here:-
At the end of November 1941, only 670 Soviet tanks were available to defend Moscow—that is, in the recently formed Kalinin, Western, and Southwestern Fronts. Only 205 of these tanks were heavy or medium types, and most of their strength was concentrated in the Western Front, with the Kalinin Front having only two tank battalions (67 tanks) and the Southwestern Front two tank brigades (30 tanks)...British-supplied tanks made up 30 to 40 percent of the entire heavy and medium tank strength of Soviet forces before Moscow at the beginning of December 1941.
It makes you wonder if some of those tanks and equipment had gone to Malaya and Burma in 1941 it might have led to a different result in early 1942. But we sacrificied our far eastern empire to help the USSR, who after the war did there best to undermine it. Such is history.
 
Recently mr.Putin published his article in the National Interest and contributed to our discussion.
He wrote about occupation of Eastern Part of Poland by the Soviet union

He continues
More to the point, the last comment is rich bearing mind that all countries have borders which are in many respects artifice. They have been changed by treaty so many times. There is one principle, win, then having won win some more, but don’t make the pretence that somehow it’s entitlement.
 

rifleair

War Hero
Describe, please, how it may happen. Which year, from your point of view the Soviet union would capitulate?
I would like to recall that up to December 1941 the Soviet union didn't receive material help in strategically significant volumes. But nethertheless the Soviet union was able to stage powerful counter offensive near Moscow.
I don't deny it. But from my point of view the Soviet contribution to the victory is not lesser.

The USA produced the first atomic bombs only in August 1945. So Hitler had almost 4 years at his disposal and Germany was able to invent and produce atomic bombs itself.
After imaginary victory over the Soviet union, Hitler no doubt would try (successfully) to capture the whole ME and establish control over Mediterranean. Movement for independence in India would be boosted and helped by Berlin. Hitler would not need new tanks and likely would expand German submarine fleet to stage effective blockade of Great Britain.
So final outcome of WW2 would not be so clear as your suggest.
I didn't say that the soviet union would capitulate, I said that the supplies and intervention from the west would tilt the balance to the Germans, take Moscow since you mention it,
"According to research by a team of Soviet historians, the Soviet Union lost a staggering 20,500 tanks from June 22 to December 31, 1941. At the end of November 1941, only 670 Soviet tanks were available to defend Moscow—that is, in the recently formed Kalinin, Western, and Southwestern Fronts. Only 205 of these tanks were heavy or medium types, and most of their strength was concentrated in the Western Front, with the Kalinin Front having only two tank battalions (67 tanks) and the Southwestern Front two tank brigades (30 tanks).
Researchers also estimate that British-supplied tanks made up 30 to 40 percent of the entire heavy and medium tank strength of Soviet forces before Moscow at the beginning of December 1941, "

Quote from Historynet.
Whether the Germans could have capitalised on your shortages is open to speculation, they may have won the battle of Moscow and Russia might have sued for peace or they might not, but it would have been a much harder fight without the British assistance.
Had Hitler won the land he required from Russia there is ample evidence to suggest that there would be a period of consolidation whereby the non Aryan peoples would be either deported to Siberia or exterminated. There would be a belt of satellite states to the north, east, south and west with watchdog states comprising Finland , Turkey and Spain on the corners.
There is also evidence to suggest that he wanted an empire in central Africa at some point in the future, however none of that was to impinge on the taking and clearing of his greater Germany.
So with using Turkey as a watchdog state there is little sign of him wanting to take control of the middle east so your thoughts there are flawed.
Yes Germany was researching Atomic weapons but again there is little to suggest that his team would have obtained a weapon first. The remainder of your post is just pie in the sky.
 
It makes you wonder if some of those tanks and equipment had gone to Malaya and Burma in 1941 it might have led to a different result in early 1942. But we sacrificied our far eastern empire to help the USSR, who after the war did there best to undermine it. Such is history.
nope, what lost us the Far East was the total loss of air superiority to the rather crappy Ki-27 and Ki-43 by our even crappier planes like Brewster Buffalos etc.
The Hurricane could comfortably hold it’s own with them, the Spitfire mastered them with ease.
we lost the Far Wast because we equipped it with 3rd rate aircraft and 2nd rate pilots.
once better planes and their far better pilots turned up from Europe in 1942, things quickly improved.
 
Barbarossa?
it was already in trouble after a few weeks.

despite basically conducting little more than a victory march through the friendly Baltic States, the Germans found the Russians were putting up much stiffer resistance in the vital northern front than expected and the ‘Blitzkrieg’ advance quickly turned into a bitter slogging match and crawl towards Moscow and Leningrad

the big German gains were in the Ukraine, an initially friendly population, and a disastrously bad Russian General, Budennoy, who believed tanks were useless and kept most of them in the rear where many were simply rolled up, having been abandoned en masse lacking ammunition or fuel, while whole armies of millions were simply rounded up having barely fired a shot..

obsessing with tactical gains, miles advanced, over strategic aims, taking Leningrad and Moscow, the Germans quickly moved their attention to the sweeping vistas of the south and epic newsreel footage of advances of many hundreds of miles into nothing but empty steppe.

they played to the Russians strength, the ability to trade territory for time..... and then General Winter and the Russian A Team turned up.
 
nope, what lost us the Far East was the total loss of air superiority to the rather crappy Ki-27 and Ki-43 by our even crappier planes like Brewster Buffalos etc.
The Hurricane could comfortably hold it’s own with them, the Spitfire mastered them with ease.
we lost the Far Wast because we equipped it with 3rd rate aircraft and 2nd rate pilots.
once better planes and their far better pilots turned up from Europe in 1942, things quickly improved.
Hurricanes reached Singapore in January 1942. They held their own against the Zero at low level but inferior at high level. Most of the Buffalos were knocked out on the ground in the North Malayan airfields in the first few days of the campaign.
 
Hurricanes reached Singapore in January 1942. They held their own against the Zero at low level but inferior at high level. Most of the Buffalos were knocked out on the ground in the North Malayan airfields in the first few days of the campaign.
some Hurricanes arrived at Singapore at the very end of January, by then, it was all over bar the shouting, they were flown to Sumatra as Singapore fell two weeks later.
the Bufallo was simply crap, 30 minutes to reach 20,000ft, everything with wings outclassed them.
 
Wrong again:


The aerial campaign for Singapore began at the outset of the invasion of Malaya. Early on 8 December 1941, Singapore was bombed for the first time by long-range Japanese aircraft, such as the Mitsubishi G3M2 "Nell" and the Mitsubishi G4M1 "Betty", based in Japanese-occupied Indochina. The bombers struck the city centre as well as the Sembawang Naval Base and the island's northern airfields. After this first raid, throughout the rest of December, there were a number of false alerts and several infrequent and sporadic hit-and-run attacks on outlying military installations such as the Naval Base, but no actual raids on Singapore City. The situation had become so desperate that one British soldier took to the middle of a road to fire his Vickers machine gun at any aircraft that passed. He could only say: "The bloody bastards will never think of looking for me in the open, and I want to see a bloody plane brought down."[79]

The next recorded raid on the city occurred on the night of 29 December, and nightly raids ensued for over a week, only to be accompanied by daylight raids from 12 January 1942 onward.[80] In the days that followed, as the Japanese army drew ever nearer to Singapore Island, the day and night raids increased in frequency and intensity, resulting in thousands of civilian casualties, up to the time of the British surrender.[81]


Firefighters battle the results of a Japanese air raid on 8 February 1942.
During the month of December, a total of 51 Hawker Hurricane Mk II fighters were sent to Singapore, with 24 pilots, the nuclei of five squadrons. They arrived on 3 January 1942, by which stage the Brewster Buffalo squadrons had been overwhelmed. No. 232 Squadron RAF was formed and No. 488 Squadron RNZAF, a Buffalo squadron, had converted to Hurricanes. 232 Squadron became operational on 20 January and destroyed three Nakajima Ki-43 "Oscars" that day, for the loss of three Hurricanes. However, like the Buffalos before them, the Hurricanes began to suffer severe losses in intense dogfights.[Note 6][82]

During the period 27–30 January, another 48 Hurricanes arrived on the aircraft carrier HMS Indomitable.[83] Operated by No. 226 Group RAF (four squadrons),[84] they flew from an airfield code-named P1, near Palembang, Sumatra, in the Dutch East Indies, while a flight was maintained in Singapore. However, many of the Hurricanes were subsequently destroyed on the ground by air raids.[85] Indeed, the lack of an effective air early warning system throughout the campaign meant that many Allied aircraft were lost in this manner during a series of Japanese attacks against airfields.[86]


Hawker Hurricane of No. 232 Squadron RAF shot down on 8 February, along the East Coast Road
By the time of the invasion, only ten Hawker Hurricane fighters of No. 232 Squadron RAF, based at RAF Kallang, remained to provide air cover to the Allied forces on Singapore. This was because the airfields of Tengah, Seletar and Sembawang were in range of Japanese artillery at Johor Bahru. RAF Kallang was the only operational airstrip left;[87] the surviving squadrons and aircraft had withdrawn by January to reinforce the Dutch East Indies.[88]

On the morning of 9 February, a series of aerial dogfights took place over Sarimbun Beach and other western areas. In the first encounter, the last ten Hurricanes were scrambled from Kallang Airfield to intercept a Japanese formation of about 84 planes, flying from Johor to provide air cover for their invasion force.[88] The Hurricanes shot down six Japanese planes, and damaged 14 others, for the loss of one of their own.[89]

Air battles went on for the rest of the day, and by nightfall it was clear that with the few aircraft Percival had left, Kallang could no longer be used as a base. With his assent, the remaining flyable Hurricanes were withdrawn to Sumatra.[90] A squadron of Hurricane fighters took to the skies on 9 February, but was then withdrawn to the Netherlands East Indies and after that no Allied aircraft were seen again over Singapore;[91] the Japanese had achieved complete air supremacy.[92] That evening, three Fairmile Motor Launches attacked and sank several Japanese landing craft in the Johor Strait around its western channel on the evening of 9 February.[91] Later, on the evening of 10 February, General Archibald Wavell, commander of American-British-Dutch-Australian Command, ordered the transfer of all remaining Allied air force personnel to the Dutch East Indies. By this time, Kallang Airfield was so pitted with bomb craters that it was no longer usable.[88
 

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