Poland 1939 Was Hitler Right

What if Hitler didn't invade Russia, and delayed the onset of WWII until Germany had nukes, that could have been a game changer

When would Stalin have attacked Germany if Hitler didn't breach the Molotov Ribbentrop pact?
 

4(T)

LE
As I recall Stalin raised the prospect of surrender but Zukhov IIRC said no whatever happens we will ultimately win - like yourself I see a very close tipping point and swapping Tirpitz for a Panzer Division could be it

Edited because the original reads as though he offered terms to Hitler

In the brief opening of Russian/Soviet archives in the 1990s, evidence apparently started to surface about widespread civil disobedience (to the Party) in Moscow during October. Unfortunately the archives were closed again, and the true story of events in 1941 (indeed the whole soviet era) may never become known to history.
 
Oh I dunno. His intent to build out the Autobahn system In the 30s was a good decision. After Sept 3rd 1939, I would agree with you.
Point of order Roadster.
The German Autobahn system was designed in the 1920s under the Weimar Governments and although work started on bits of them in the late 1920s the first complete one went live in about 1932.
Hitler merely saw a good idea and extended the program for which he now takes credit.
 

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
The only time Hitler was right was on 30 April 1945.
His new wife must have changed pretty damn quickly from a sex kitten to a nasty ferrel alley cat only interested in his money and power.
Most squaddies I knew gave the marriage at least six months.
 
Point of order Roadster.
The German Autobahn system was designed in the 1920s under the Weimar Governments and although work started on bits of them in the late 1920s the first complete one went live in about 1932.
Hitler merely saw a good idea and extended the program for which he now takes credit.
He was bang on the money with the worlds first Grammar Nazi though
 
Point of order Roadster.
The German Autobahn system was designed in the 1920s under the Weimar Governments and although work started on bits of them in the late 1920s the first complete one went live in about 1932.
Hitler merely saw a good idea and extended the program for which he now takes credit.
Indeed, hence why I said "build out".
 
If Hitler had delayed until September 3rd 1941 and the Japs had still done their thing three months later, it may well have been that the whole BEF shambles would have been delayed a year and been morphed into Overlord a year early..............

.....and if my dad had tits he would have been my mum....you can twist and re-configure it any way you like, that's what war games are for, shuffling models and pin flags on a games board, The end result would have been the same. whataboutery and IF, has millions of combinations, what if the americans had the atomic bomb in 1940, what if the Germans didn't have Von Braun, what if Roosevelt was assassinated in 1939, what if Churchill never existed, and lord Halifax handed over the UK to Hitler. What if my father hadn't been posted to Burma..................What if McGuiness and Adams hadn't been born.........And paisley was a Muslim...FFS

This "What If" has no end...its a pointless exercise.
 
We’d still have nuked them in 1945
No we wouldn't Germany is far too close, the fallout would have reached the UK and the people would have written letters of complaint and stuff...
 
Nahhh. Hitler's still gonna loose.

Simply put nothing happens in a vacuum. We had a huge head start on the Germans in terms of escorts, and that's all she wrote really. If Germany starts building more U-boats (why? she can't get them out into the Atlantic), we build more Escorts. Equally if you wait until 41, then by that point we've (almost) got Hedgehog into service, with the better Squid under development.
If the U-boat's on the surface a few rounds of 4in makes the problem go away. If its under water the Hedgehog would end it. Remember at the start of the war we had a horrible chance of hitting a U-boat with a ten pattern spread of depth charges. I've seen numbers ranging from 1-6%. A Hedgehog will hit, and thus kill a U-boat one attack in three.
Look at the logistics of Germany. She's effectively blockaded, and cornered by the UK and she can't break out. Equally I heard a statistic the other day, the UK had access to something like 80% of the worlds shipping. So that's a serious trade advantage.

On Land, things could have been better by 41. Consider agaisnt what Germany was fielding. We'd have had a 16-20 ton Medium tank, with a V-12 engine chucking out about 450hp with 50mm basis and a 2-pounder gun if the Germans had waited a year. We may also have stopped fannying about and already deployed 1st Army Tank brigade across the channel. If that had been part of the BEF from 1939 the French campaign would have looked very different with the Germans suddenly puckering up for a Rodgering.
Go early, go late, it matters not German is almost certainly going to loose.

Just about the only chance Germany had was in 1941, in our current timeline, capturing Iraq. But as usual Hitler mong'd it and lost.
Great post, very well put. Its lose not loose by the way....just sayin...
 
.....and if my dad had tits he would have been my mum....you can twist and re-configure it any way you like, that's what war games are for, shuffling models and pin flags on a games board, The end result would have been the same. whataboutery and IF, has millions of combinations, what if the americans had the atomic bomb in 1940, what if the Germans didn't have Von Braun, what if Roosevelt was assassinated in 1939, what if Churchill never existed, and lord Halifax handed over the UK to Hitler. What if my father hadn't been posted to Burma..................What if McGuiness and Adams hadn't been born.........And paisley was a Muslim...FFS

This "What If" has no end...its a pointless exercise.
Indeed, so perhaps you might have quoted the OP....
 
I wonder if Japan had gone early and concentrated on the British, Dutch and French colonies would uncle sam had stayed at home and would our reinforcements got there in time and been of sufficient quality to sort out Tojo's battle proven Army and air forces.
Indeed what affect would that have had on Itler.
Pearl harbour is the direct result of US policy** against Japan regarding its war in Manchuria and the Japanese feeling painted into a corner under the threat of embargo and there war machine and economy grinding to a halt.

As such an attack on the rest but not the US probably doesnt help them - the US would just extend the restrictions / embargo.

Like wise Singapore probably has to go because even a UK fully engaged in a European war is likely to leap to its allies aid in the pacific ( Post Dunkirk that becomes especially a UK in the hope its ally reciprocates)



**Its also claimed by conspiracy theorists that the US letter on 6th December was so threatening and insulting that it was designed to force Japan into war. Yes I too think its stretching coincidence and credulity that the Japanese just happened to have a fully worked up carrier strike group with both detailed plans and several dress rehearsals under its belt not to mention submarines within striking range of pearl harbour at the very same time the US provokes them.
 

Slime

LE
If we are allowing ‘what ifs’, what if Germany had been led by a Nazi strategic military thinker rather than a Nazi ‘artist’.
 
If we are allowing ‘what ifs’, what if Germany had been led by a Nazi strategic military thinker rather than a Nazi ‘artist’.
Like Rommel leading a coup, purging the SS, and continuing the war without Hitler?
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
I think you are right. Delaying the war after already triggering re-armament in Britain and France just sees the allies immeasurably stronger by the time it kicks off.

Maybe the BEF goes to France with 1,000,000 men and 6 lbers instead of 200k and 2 lbers, the RAF has Spit MkV, better radar, heavy bombers and jets further down the development track, RN has extensive radar, more escorts, refurbished capital ships and possibly more carriers, HMG has had three years in which to cripple the German economy through economic sanctions and diplomacy.

Perhaps France even overcomes its internal problems, changes government and comes to the field at its true strength and potential.


Etc.

This thread could run...
By 1941 its quite possible HMS Hood would have been fully reconstructed and recommissions. At which point it would have been the biggest, fastest and most well protected Fast Battleship the world had ever seen until Yamato hit the water, and 8x15" guns was no slouch in the firepower department. The Battle of the Denmark Straight would have been VERY different.

Fighter Command would probably have converted all its front line fighters to 20mm cannon armament, been fully equipped with aeroplanes (with a reserve to replace attrition) and Radar control of those fighters would have been honed to a razor's edge. The weak link for the UK was always the army (they were the least necessary for home defence thus got the lowest priority for R&D and re-tooling at least until 1944). @Listy is much better placed than me to comment and has already said above about the possibility of a new tank (be interested to hear/read a little about that if you have the spare time @Listy ) and a heavily reinforced BEF.
 
What if he had........
I would have pointed out that the premise of the original post was - Hitler was indeed right to go in 39** rather than 1941 as some suggest not a what if ?

Although i am guilty of introducing one later
 
Like Rommel leading a coup, purging the SS, and continuing the war without Hitler?
Wonderful (for us). He'll end up starting a war with a crap logistic chain (because G4 Is For Hats), get away with a couple of blinding tactical moves, and then get absolutely hammered flat by either the Soviets (who'll watch him overextend himself, cut him off, and round up another quarter-million soldiers) or the British (driving a staff car when the British have air superiority is a daft move).

Basically, he'll lose then make lots of excuses about the Italians / Romanians / Spanish.
 

Latest Threads

Top