PLCE trials

#43
Cracking read. Same old story with weight..

Hasn't anyone suggested/gone down the route of this sort of thing yet

Wheely treck thing

or a wheeled pulk
 
#44
Was wondering that Myself. Possibly Daithi O' Livingstone. Davids lesser known nephew.....:oops:
Surely it is either a faded French flag or an Italian one... and the Italians were not terribly well known for their forays into the interior of the Dark Continent.
 
#46
I assumed Italian,possibly from Abyssinia.
I had too, but then I thought about the effort required. But then again, it is a portrait and some artistic licence has to be assumed. He was probably just on his way to his mama’s for lunch and brought a few bearers with the requisite gifts of the three P’s - pasta, pesto and parmigiano.
 

MrBane

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
Reviews Editor
#47
Cracking read. Same old story with weight..

Hasn't anyone suggested/gone down the route of this sort of thing yet

Wheely treck thing

or a wheeled pulk
That's nae so cheap eh? Nice idea, but I wonder how the stability goes when it's fully laden and how much strain is actually on the arms to keep it balanced.

The problem with that concept I think, is that eventually you will meet an obstacle that something like the Honey Badger will not be able to traverse. You then have to strip the load off, get it over, and get the unit over, which could substantially slow your progress.

Things like doing a kit dump and leaving a few guys stagging on as well - the concept might sound good in theory or in an area defined by FLET and FLOT, but for somewhere like Herrick, you couldn't leave just a slack handful of guys behind because there was no defined line and it'd be easy enough for them to get overrun.

We were carrying silly, silly weights in Herrick. Guys couldn't get up from the kneeling, your jumping distance from standing was two or three feet, and you drained out very quickly.

I was in our advance party - out on patrol near PB 2A I think it was by the green zone, and one of the outgoing units lads fell into an irrigation ditch backwards. Poor bastard nearly drowned because the weight on his back pulled him straight to the bottom and it took about five of us, up to our necks in the water, to get him out.

Should more emphasis have been put on getting to your AO in combat order - move light and fast, and then get an underslung load brought in with the bergens? Threat dependent of course but we could've got away with that in Herrick. We had a few Chinook resups - could just have easily been our bergens.

We had a few long talks with our OC - top bloke, was one of Them and so was quite open to new ideas. We often discussed the idea of a few of us ditching Osprey, helmets and backpacks, keeping only webbing and weapons. The idea was that under contact, whilst the main body suppress, etc, this group of light fighters, would more or less sprint to new positions to flank, etc. He was up for it, but just couldn't run the risk of the hindsight brigade pouring in afterwards.

There's lots of ways to make a lighter load work, but it involves everyone in the chain of command being involved and supportive of the process - which as we all know, rarely if ever happens.

Finished that read, excellent stuff. Just shows you though, no corporate memory at all and we learn, really, nothing.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#48
Finished that read, excellent stuff. Just shows you though, no corporate memory at all and we learn, really, nothing.
Thats what the informed was for but the rest deserves it too
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#49
We were carrying silly, silly weights in Herrick. Guys couldn't get up from the kneeling, your jumping distance from standing was two or three feet, and you drained out very quickly.
Back in 1984 we were one of the 6 airmobile trials Bns. Our A Company did a real war weights trial for the RAF. Chinooks would have been overloaded had we deployed for real. It wasn't just the personal ammo, that was normal BAOR scales. Frankly as a counter penetration Bn we wouldn't have survived long enough to dig in let alone fire off our war scales but thats not the point.
It was the 84mm ammo, pioneer stores, additional 66mm and the Bn was formed with 64 milan posts all of which had 18 missiles to be shifted by the rifle companies.
We had no body armour and GS bergans were issued which only held sleeping bags, 24 hour rations, basically what would be squeezed into the old large pack less spare boots. Troops packed a pair of denims pt shoes and sweatshirt. The large packs were held at CQMS with a clean combat suit and spare boots and smalls, towel etc.
We wore SAA order with resi cases attached. Anything else carried was at your own risk. You lived in the little GS bergan. It worked. It meant though that you could all be bombed up to buggery and during the weight trials it took three men to lift a Milan post op from the floor or rather drag him upright so he could waddle to the scales!
Project Payne? this was project pain!
 
#50
That's nae so cheap eh? Nice idea, but I wonder how the stability goes when it's fully laden and how much strain is actually on the arms to keep it balanced.

The problem with that concept I think, is that eventually you will meet an obstacle that something like the Honey Badger will not be able to traverse. You then have to strip the load off, get it over, and get the unit over, which could substantially slow your progress.

Things like doing a kit dump and leaving a few guys stagging on as well - the concept might sound good in theory or in an area defined by FLET and FLOT, but for somewhere like Herrick, you couldn't leave just a slack handful of guys behind because there was no defined line and it'd be easy enough for them to get overrun.

We were carrying silly, silly weights in Herrick. Guys couldn't get up from the kneeling, your jumping distance from standing was two or three feet, and you drained out very quickly.

I was in our advance party - out on patrol near PB 2A I think it was by the green zone, and one of the outgoing units lads fell into an irrigation ditch backwards. Poor bastard nearly drowned because the weight on his back pulled him straight to the bottom and it took about five of us, up to our necks in the water, to get him out.

Should more emphasis have been put on getting to your AO in combat order - move light and fast, and then get an underslung load brought in with the bergens? Threat dependent of course but we could've got away with that in Herrick. We had a few Chinook resups - could just have easily been our bergens.

We had a few long talks with our OC - top bloke, was one of Them and so was quite open to new ideas. We often discussed the idea of a few of us ditching Osprey, helmets and backpacks, keeping only webbing and weapons. The idea was that under contact, whilst the main body suppress, etc, this group of light fighters, would more or less sprint to new positions to flank, etc. He was up for it, but just couldn't run the risk of the hindsight brigade pouring in afterwards.

There's lots of ways to make a lighter load work, but it involves everyone in the chain of command being involved and supportive of the process - which as we all know, rarely if ever happens.

Finished that read, excellent stuff. Just shows you though, no corporate memory at all and we learn, really, nothing.
The bit I also found really illuminating was the timing of theory/reality clashes, just when procurement caught up with the theory, reality (be it Corporate, Granby or Telic) came along and kicked things sideways.

That it took so long for the concept of one size not fitting all, Marines really liking their Bergens more than Paras, and Mech Inf vs Type B primacy roller coaster to fade away into an adaptable modular system was not really a surprise.
In some ways, PLCE 90 has actualy done very well and one suspects that the leap forwards/gains of VIRTUS (though there seems to be lots of ongoing upgrades) may be seen as very marginal/not worth the money
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#51
In some ways, PLCE 90 has actualy done very well and one suspects that the leap forwards/gains of VIRTUS (though there seems to be lots of ongoing upgrades) may be seen as very marginal/not worth the money
Only thirty more years till we find out then!
 
#52
All plce needed, imho, was an additional vest with the ability to stick the same pouches on as well as the normal belt order. One would have been able to do a pick and mix for missions or roles. The pack was a good bit of kit, the bergan was capable of vast loads and their comfort could be improved with fettling.
 
#53
Back in 1984 we were one of the 6 airmobile trials Bns. Our A Company did a real war weights trial for the RAF. Chinooks would have been overloaded had we deployed for real. It wasn't just the personal ammo, that was normal BAOR scales. Frankly as a counter penetration Bn we wouldn't have survived long enough to dig in let alone fire off our war scales but thats not the point.
It was the 84mm ammo, pioneer stores, additional 66mm and the Bn was formed with 64 milan posts all of which had 18 missiles to be shifted by the rifle companies.
We had no body armour and GS bergans were issued which only held sleeping bags, 24 hour rations, basically what would be squeezed into the old large pack less spare boots. Troops packed a pair of denims pt shoes and sweatshirt. The large packs were held at CQMS with a clean combat suit and spare boots and smalls, towel etc.
We wore SAA order with resi cases attached. Anything else carried was at your own risk. You lived in the little GS bergan. It worked. It meant though that you could all be bombed up to buggery and during the weight trials it took three men to lift a Milan post op from the floor or rather drag him upright so he could waddle to the scales!
Project Payne? this was project pain!
I was one of the Sapper Sqn on the same trial. Nice when the helicopters turned up...:)
 
#54
All plce needed, imho, was an additional vest with the ability to stick the same pouches on as well as the normal belt order. One would have been able to do a pick and mix for missions or roles. The pack was a good bit of kit, the bergan was capable of vast loads and their comfort could be improved with fettling.
The only issue I saw with the PLCE trial was - as mentioned in the report - the risk of people overloading the 100 ltr bergan, and not with mob stores but shite like spare boots and daps etc...I thought it should have been combined with a form of SIMO load out to stop buffoons filling up the space.
 
#56
All plce needed, imho, was an additional vest with the ability to stick the same pouches on as well as the normal belt order. One would have been able to do a pick and mix for missions or roles. The pack was a good bit of kit, the bergan was capable of vast loads and their comfort could be improved with fettling.
I was issued the desert vest with all the molle pouches for TELIC but, as the necessary pouches ended up on my Osprey, I never wore it. It might have had its uses had I been issued ECBA as I was in and out of vehicles a lot, where webbing is inconvenient. The man bag was more use.


Posted from the ARRSE Mobile app (iOS or Android)
 
#57
I was issued the desert vest with all the molle pouches for TELIC but, as the necessary pouches ended up on my Osprey, I never wore it. It might have had its uses had I been issued ECBA as I was in and out of vehicles a lot, where webbing is inconvenient. The man bag was more use.


Posted from the ARRSE Mobile app (iOS or Android)
I think the vest was a perfect example of what happens when you ask a squaddie what they want and then give it to them. Just too bulky and some seriously questionable pouches, helmet mesh bag anyone? There used to be a poster on here (kitmonster? Gearspotter) who was very involved in the later procurement process so I'd be fascinated to hear his view, alas kitmonster doesn't how any current users. ETA kitmonster is showing in the post!
 
Last edited:
#58

W21A

War Hero
Book Reviewer
#60
Cracking read. Same old story with weight..

Hasn't anyone suggested/gone down the route of this sort of thing yet

Wheely treck thing

or a wheeled pulk
On a sigs course at Warminster in the 80s or 90s I'm sure ITDU was trailing a mono tracked man haul trailer for use by the Pl HQ. I don't remember seeing it issued. Can any one confirm this item was real and not a alcohol induced 'memory'.
 

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